SEARCH
SEARCH DIRECTORY
The UK’s integrative cancer care charityHelpline 0870 163 2990
menu
WIGWAM Cancer Support
Show #262 - Date: 14 Jun 2020

Clare McLusky introduces this Yes to Life initiative, tells us what’s on offer and how to get involved, and we talk to others engaged in the scheme.





WIGWAM Cancer Support

Robin Daly: For this week show I’d like to present to the Yes To Life cancer support group initiative, WIGWAM. To do this, I’m joined by Claire McCluskey Yes To Life trustee who is heading up the initiative. During the show, we’re also going to hear from Sue de Cesare, who is joining us from her Somerset hideaway, where she retired recently having been executive director of Yes To Life for many years. We’re also going to hear from Phillip Booth, who is cofounderof the Stroud WIGWAM  group and can tell us all about the workings of the group.

I’m starting out talking to Claire over the internet at her home in rural Oxfordshire.

Hi, Claire. Thanks so much for coming on the show to talk about the WIGWAM initiative that you’re heading up for Yes To  life.

Clare McLusky: I’m very excited about this project.

Robin Daly: Great. Before we get on to WIGWAM,  I’d like to tell listeners that you’ve been involved with Yes To Life for well over a decade. Starting out, working on a project for us and then moving to the help line. In fact, I don’t think you’ve ever really moved off the help line. For the last few years you’ve been a trustee, so extraordinary dedication through good and bad times. What in particular about our mission is it that gets you out of bed in the morning?

Clare McLusky: While having some support out there for people, speaking for myself when I had cancer and want to look at a different approach, to see what all my options were, there was nothing really, I couldn’t find anything and it really stressed me out and I basically gave up and just did what I was told in the beginning.

Then when I felt more relaxed, I went out. But I think just having somewhere to go where you can get the support, talk to somebody, read about the different options, find out about the different options is so valuable.

Robin Daly: Fantastic. So on to WIGWAM. It’s not a new initiative, but it has taken a bit of a turn recently, mainly due to the coronavirus. We can go into the new developments in some detail a bit later on in the show, but can you start out by just summing up what it is? What is WIGWAM? What’s its ethos. What does it do?

Clare McLusky: It’s a way of bringing people together to support each other, to find out the best ways of healing the mind and body when they’re living with cancer. There’re so many things out there that you can do for yourself to help improve,  process through treatment after treatment, both physically and emotionally and mentally.

It’s people coming together to be able to talk about that and find out what’s out there. But I think it’d be best to pass this over to Sue because she came up with this initiative at the start and I love the way the quote she gave us for the new website, which we’ll be talking about soon.

Sue, would you like to say how it started?

Sue de Cesare: Yes. Hi Claire. Hi Robin. I was thinking a bit about this, more recently because we’ve been talking quite a bit about WIGWAM, and I think the first thing was, we ran a yoga workshop in Covent Garden. This must be going back four years, I reckon.

There were six women, none of them knew each other and they’d all traveled fromridiculous distances to come to this, which is always quite a surprise. After the workshop had finished, they were all chatting to each other and they all went out to have lunch together and they looked really happy.

I remember going home thinking we should do something about this. This is crazy. They’ve made a friendship group out of nothing. We were doing yoga. It’s not like we were sitting there and chatting, but there’s a real need for that. And as  time went on, it was sort of in my head when we started doing an application for money for the lottery fund.

As part of that, we did a survey. I could see myself gearing this whole survey towards some sort of group where people could get together in a safe place where they could talk about doing complimentary and alternative medicine, or just about what they were doing.

What came out of that survey as we had an amazing response to it was there’s a real need,  for people to be in a safe space where they weren’t being told what to do, they weren’t being made to feel silly for looking to do something different, and they could share their experience and were listened to and have a voice. That was really the impetus for us to say, right we’ve just got to do this. I don’t know how we’re going to do it, but we’ve just got to do it. We’ve got to set up something, it doesn’t matter how small it is. It just needed to be even a bit with two people that lived close to each other, that didn’t know each other. We could set something up with them and give them the tools to do it. And that’s kind of how it started.

Clare McLusky Fantastic. I just want to say, as you were saying that, thanks a lot Sue, it’s brilliant to hear that. I was just looking for a nice quote yesterday. I came across this: “surround yourself only by people who are going to lift you higher” I think Oprah Winfrey said that. It perfectly encapsulates it in a way, doesn’t it? Because sometimes it’s really hard to discuss, even with family and friends, if you want to go a slightly different route and certainly lots of people have experienced resistance to taking a broader approach, when they tried to discuss it with their,  medical practitioners. So it’s really nice to be able to be with other people who are going down the same road.

That’s one of the real values of being in a group, when you join a group, you can feel a sense of hope because you can see people possibly further down the line in their treatment or their recovery or all the things they are doing for themselves that you realize that yes, there’s so much I can take control of because the main thing with any big shock in your life, and, particularly in illness like cancer, is all the uncertainty that comes with it. When we feel so uncertain, gaining some control helps, that’s all the things that we can do for ourselves in the process. When Sue started and was looking for a name for us, I was actually running a group at that time for people living with cancer. It was a mindfulness group here in Oxford.

So I put out to the group members, anybody got a good name for this, and I do have a name, somebody in that group, Richard May, came up with the name of WIGWAM because it was the idea of people leaning in on each other and supporting each other and no particular hierarchy or leader, but just coming together to support each other and be strong together, which Sue obviously loved because she chose that one.

Sue de Cesare: Obviously, naming anything is  most difficult and we had a few suggestions, but somehow it did resonate. I have to say there was a little bit of resistance about the name because obviously the historic meaning and what we were trying to do; it didn’t link to what it’s seen in history as, Indians and other tribes using them. But there’s another guy, Tony Coleville, who’s another person that was supporting a charity. He’d been to an event where in fact there were WIGWAMs in a field and it was the children and teenagers that wanted to sit in a safe space to talk about their issues and their problems with a counselor.

When I mentioned this to him, he said “that’s the part that fits. The resonance of what it’s trying to achieve fits exactly with that. Don’t worry,  you will never please everybody when you’re nailing something.” So I did feel a bit more comfortable about it, but with all things in life, it’s very difficult to please everybody but it came from the heart of what we are trying to achieve. The definition absolutely sums up what the group is about. Claire’s right in that, being comfortable and supported in a group that isn’t telling you what to do.

You may have a very supportive family, even if you’re doing alternative or complimentary medicine alongside your conventional treatment, but they tend not to listen.That came across quite a lot in talking to people about the group. The feedback we’ve had has been amazing. It started small, but I can see it growing into a hugely supportive network for people across the UK.

Clare McLusky: There’s somethings comforting and freeing when you’re with people going through the same challenge as yourself, where you feel you can be totally honest about what you’re feeling. You’re not going to upset a family member because they’re seeing how sad you are or how stressed or anxious you all are or how terrified you are. Or sometimes we don’t show our family members because we don’t want to upset them. This is a safe space where you can be totally yourself with other people about how you feel because they’re going through a similar thing. That’s the strength of the group.

Sue de Cesare: When we did the survey, as part of that, we had to go and spend time with another type of support group. We went to meet the Hitchin group of carers and that’s what triggered it and actually they gave us all the pitfalls of how not to create a support group. One of the downfalls, they said was, sometimes there’s one individual that will want to dominate a group and it’s often the person that sets it up, it becomes their group and they will dictate how it’s run, what they’re going to talk about and they don’t miss them. This really resonated with us, gosh, let’s not let this happen.

Some of the biggest cancer charities, their support groups are very much like this, they’re very prescribed. When we did a Skype the other day with some of the people from the WIGWAM groups, that’s exactly what hasn’t happened.

That is the deepest joy to hear that the types of people coming along to these groups understand what these groups are about. I think the reason that has happened is because it has grown organically and people are listening to each other.

Robin Daly: Great. Thank you very much, so great to hear it from the horse’s mouth, as they say, the person who came up with the idea and your thinking behind it right from the start. Very nice. Thank you Sue.

 

Okay. So we’ve got some local groups that are in operation, and I believe there are more in the pipeline being talked about. Do you want to give us an overview of what goes on in these groups?

Clare McLusky: Well, can I just say how, what happened when we took it off Robin? Because it was a fantastic idea and great initiative and there were three groups running out at the time this pandemic began, and I felt really, really strongly. I’d started being involved in coordinating them. It just felt absolutely vital at the beginning of this pandemic and lockdown that we got more support out to more people. WIGWAMs seems the perfect way forward because pandemics bring in uncertainty to everybody not just people living with cancer.

But there was the double whammy for people with a cancer diagnosis because treatments were being canceled and surgery was being canceled and the feeling of extra vulnerability of,people with locked down, not going out at all, or people in the family going out and coming back in the fear of catching it.

So it felt vital to try and get WIGWAM bigger, and once that idea came, it’s been carried along with this fantastic energy that’s I reached out to. The current WIGWAM is the fantastic energy that came from these three groups because they were fully on board with helping create a website to grow WIGWAM.

So we now have a dedicated WIGWAM  website and all the fabulous content on the website has been a joint effort with myself, Faye who’s another trustee of the charity, Philip who runs Stroud, Tony and Heather who run Staines and Jill who runs Amber club, which is a WIGWAM in Hartford.

So it was thanks to this fantastic team and all the energy coming, and then Miquel our current executive director created this beautiful website, and Sue’s quote of how she initially came up with the idea and we’ve got a lovely homepage drawing, which is from somebody who contributed right at the start of lockdown to our newsletter, Fiona Smith, so it was really so exciting and actually it is volunteer week this week,so it’s a great opportunity. I’d love to just say thank you to everybody who took time and made the effort to make this WIGWAM happen and to get as much support out there to as many people as we could.

So yes the idea of the website was connecting more people with each other.

Robin Daly: Okay. Well, we can come back round to what’s happening now a bit later in the show. But I’m really pleased to say that we have a veteran of the circuit WIGWAM. Phillip is joining us. He’s been running a group for some time. I’m not exactly sure how long it is, but he’s one of the original setup in response to Sue’s invitation and he is here to talk to us today about the real world of actually running a group or what’s happening there.

 

So, Philip thanks so much for joining us today. How long actually has the Stroud group been running?

Philip:  a year and a half now I reckon.

Robin Daly:  Very good. What made you think about setting up a group like this?

Philip:  Well, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer about two and a half, three years ago. When I spoke with the oncologist, I enthusiastically asked about diet and exercise and the response was “well, you’re doing all right already, you’re very healthy. That’s great. Just keep up the good work” I’ve used vaLarian to help with sleeping in the past. I’ve had acupuncture. I’ve done all sorts of things in the past. I just thought, my gut feeling was, there’s something more I can do to support my cancer than just doing what they’re suggesting.

So I went along to a local prostate cancer support group, and it’s absolutely excellent, excellent group, but again, most of its focus was around the mainstreamoffer from health services, very little about complimentary options or any of those sorts of things. So I was doing more reading online and then I came across some articles around exercise. One piece of research really stood out to me. It said that in 2014, there were 4,600 Swedish men with prostate cancer. They found that those that were doing more than 20 minutes of exercise or cycling everyday had a 39% less risk of dying from cancer and a 30% less risk of dying from any other cause.

I thought. 39% lower risk of dying from cancer, this is just huge. Goodness. Nobody mentioned it to me. And yet, if it was a pill, the, the health service would be throwing it at me. So I thought, goodness, there’s more out there. I started to have some more conversations with people. It was actually a Trew Fields in 2018, an amazing cancer festival, if you don’t know about it, just definitely Google it. So I was at Trew Fields, I came across this stall, it was the Yes To Life stall and I had a conversation with them. The people there saying, well, have you got support groups in Stroud?

No, well, I’d be interested in supporting one, but I haven’t really got the energy to start one myself, maybe we could put an email out. Anyway. After a little bit, I heard via Facebook page from Sharon who lived locally and the two of us ended up meeting. We ended up deciding to do it together. We basically started the group with actually only three members,  and met in each other’s houses. That’s where it started.

Robin Daly:  Excellent.

Clare McLusky:  It’s great. The way it can start like that for them, start small, then gradually, I remember you saying to me that it was mainly word of mouth that helped you grow.

Philip: Yeah, it was, it was pretty, well, all word of mouth. We’ve actually grown over time, we got up to 11 now, we’ve actually had to say no to people joining, because we meet in people’s houses, although some groups meet in halls or other venues, but we’ve decided we wanted to carry on meeting in houses. And if you’re getting usually nine or 10 people turning up at my house, it’s too little to have well, even a man in 10 is a squeeze. So we put a stop at 11 and we’re going to try and support another group starting up if we get more people coming forward and then we can perhaps run along in parallel.

Robin Daly: Excellent. Yeah, really good. As Sue described, people are quite freehand in how people set up their own group. It’s not overly prescriptive. The idea being that people find out what they want to do, what’s helpful to them and they decide how they want to go about it. So, given that, do you want to paint a little picture of who you are as a group and the ways in which you interact?

Philip: We meet once a month, on a Friday afternoon. We aren’t meeting in homes now obviously. Now we’re doing it by via zoom, which is a little bit different, but it works, works surprisingly well.

We usually share where we’re at. If people share, they might be sharing what they’ve been through recently, whether it’s treatment or maybe just feeling down, share what they feel comfortable with. What I love about the atmosphere is it’s very supportive and non-judgmental, and everything said in the group is confidential.

It feels a really safe place to explore. Some people may not feel able to share some of those feelings or thoughts with family members or people that they are living with. So it’s often a space that’s been really supportive in that way.

Then we’ve often had a topic or a theme for the session we meet for a couple of hours. That can be anything from, sauna and hypothermia, we had a cancer coach come and visit us once, we spent a one session talking about blood urine and saliva tests for different sorts and ended up picking up tips. If you want a blood test for something that perhaps the NHS won’t do, you have to often spend £25 pounds to get it done privately. Apparently some GPs will do it if you’re having other blood tests, they might take a little bit of extra blood and do it if they think that that might be useful as well. So we picked up little tips like that.

Boot shell or fermented drink, we’ve looked at food and recommended reading. My go to book is always the Sophie Savage’s Cancer Whisperer, but I’ve now read loads more, and so lots of other great titles that we’ve been sharing with one another.

We looked at balancing hormones,  perhaps who we think is a good therapist or some comes out with good websites. It’s mostly about giving advice, sharing where we’re at and exploring some of these things together, it might be about local information, mindfulness classes, a fermenting workshop that’s happening locally.

We’ve got a WhatsApp group that we can share stuff through as well, links to conferences, hear what some people hadn’t heard about such as the Trew Fields cancer festival. I think we’re all going onmass. It wouldn’t have been this summer, but it’ll be the next one, I think larger numbers of the group are actually all going to go beause they all heard about how wonderful it was. Penny Braun conference that some people came along to as well. So yeah, it’s a sharing all sorts of different things, really.

Robin Daly: a great resource. Brilliant. And how do you decide what you’re going to do next in terms of talking about topics?

Philip: It’s been just so wonderful because everybody either suggests an idea on, it’s evolved really organically and everybody seems to take a lead in something or doing something. One guy just last week decided that actually we need to review where we’re at.

So we sent round a little questionnaire that is designed to look at what are we going to do if we’ve got 11 members, how do we expand, what are the ways that we could support that? Can we have carers joining the group or not? So it’s been really evolving organically about how it might be or what we might discuss

Clare McLusky: I think that’s the real gift in the whole idea of each group can develop in its own way, depending on the facilitator around the members of the group. As Philip said quite clearly, it’s not about advice, and that is one of the things that we make sure is said at the beginning. Phillip had written in his Description of the group, that the group is open to anyone living with cancer, who is nonjudgmental about others’ choices around both complimentary and orthodox approaches. That’s a lovely criteria for membership and the confidentiality, nonjudgmental support of each other. They are the rules that each group coming together agree between them and their being part of WIGWAM, they’ve quite key.

Philip: Our group’s quite mixed as well. We’ve got T2s T3s T4s different cancers, four or five men, real mixture of people. That’s lovely because we’ve had some people that have followed the complimentary route. There are others who’ve just done the medical route and dabbled, or had a little bit of both, so we’re all at different spaces. I’ve done a bit of both. So it’s a real mixture of people there

Robin Daly: That’s really good because that completely reflects Yes To Life that set it up. That’s exactly how we respond to people. We’re nonjudgmental. We just want to help people with what they want to know in order to help themselves. And if somebody wants to add a bit of massage to that, otherwise entirely a regular program of medical interventions, well, that’s fine. If somebody wants to go nowhere near a hospital, that’s also fine. We’re not there to tell anybody what to do, but actually just to help them to do what they want to do and help them find out what they want to do as well.

What would you say about how your group has changed over time? What are the things about it which have developed particularly that you’ve noticed?

Philip: What I’ve loved most is just the relationships that are developed over that time and the trust that’s been built up between people in the group. It is very special and there’s a real commitment to people coming every month. It’s only one or two people who are usually missing in that monthly meeting. People are really committed to it and really supportive. At  the moment somebody has been very unwell, and we’ve been doing a intention every night at six o’clock on WhatsApp, to remember and to support this person. That’s been going on for two months with everybody participating. So for me, it’s been just that level of support has blown me away. Also the knowledge within the group because people with different passions or different interests, it’s been really lovely to see that growing over time.

Robin Daly: Marvelous. You mentioned monthly meetings, how often you meet is another thing that you decide as a group; you could meet every week if you wanted to. Absolutely. That’s great.

All right. So have you got a sort of peak thing? Some peak moments, something really great that happened in your group?

Philip: There’s so many things. For me that level of commitment or that support that I see every time we come there is probably the best thing I know.

I have a quote from somebody just the other day who said, wow, this group is so amazing. I didn’t know what I was missing until I found it” which was really lovely. We’ve had many other similar comments from people about just how valuable they find it and how important it’s been, which is great. I think was it Sue or somebody else said once that it’s about finding your tribe.

It’s really important that cancer doesn’t dominate your life after you’ve been through the treatments and all the rest of it. Sophie Savage talks about cancer only taking up 5% of your life rather than the whole of your life. For some people, this is a group or connection once a month, for others, it’s a much bigger part of their journey. We’re going to be exploring a lot more at our next meeting about off-label drugs. Some people have been through some of those protocols and others are just starting to think about them.

So many little ones for me, probably the biggest though, was the chocolate brownie made without sugar. It really was quite extraordinary. I’ve got the recipe and I’ve only made about four times so far!

Robin Daly: Maybe it needs to be on the WIGWAM website!

Clare McLusky: Would you say, Phillip, that people get a benefit from helping each other? Because it sounds like it when you were saying that. Everybody’s got different strengths and different knowledge, so they’re bringing different things to the group.

Philip: Yeah, absolutely. There’s loads of research showing that actually how good giving is for your health and helping others. Absolutely, I think the support is level. The person who’s been unwell, there were three of the group cooking meals and taking them round to her every week. I had enormous support from one of the members of the group who’s been particularly supportive when I was going through treatment.

So yes definitely, that’s a big part of it.

Robin Daly: that’s great to hear. The thing about cancer is that it can be isolating. People tend to feel isolated when they got it. When you’re isolated, the same stuff just goes round and round and round your head. Of course, you also preoccupied. How could you not be? I can imagine that this really lifts you out of that,  you’re thinking about somebody else and helping them must be good for you. I’m sure.

Okay, well, Phillip, thanks so much for coming on and joining us today and telling us about the coalface there. You’ve been doing a fantastic job out there. I just want to finish off by just telling listeners that you just been appointed to a new role in the Yes To Life. Do you want to tell us about it?

Philip:  Well, yes, it’s such an exciting, cool title, it’s WIGWAM Coordinator. It’s starting next week and it’s going to be supporting, setting up the online WIGWAM groups. So we’ve got two things going on on the website. One is the forums that are happening, where we get speakers or people with particular knowledge or expertise who perhaps share that and we can ask questions. We’ve had a great one from Lizzie Davis talking exercise.

Clare did a fantastic one on mindfulness and we have one talking about fear next week. The next one coming up is Joe Gamble, on Functional medicine. I think she was the first person in the country to qualify. So yes there are two things; the forums and also setting up the online support groups. That’ll be part of the focus over the next three months or so.

Robin Daly: People are interested in joining somewhere are likely to be interacting with you. Thank you very much, Phillip.

So Clare, just want to spend five minutes now coming right up to date with WIGWAM, all the things that you were talking about earlier that have happened in response to the coronavirus, and all the new difficulties it’s brought along for people with cancer and how WIGWAMs evolved really to meet that new need.

Clare McLusky: well, we’re bringing the existing groups online, running on zoom. The main aim is to be setting up more new groups online so more people will be able to benefit from getting support from each other. That’s starting the week after next. We’ve got enough people coming together to get the first online group running. Then we hope many will spring from there, it’s getting the word out, really the WIGWAM happening.

Robin Daly: These groups are non-geographic unlike the one that Phillip is running for example, which is obviously located around Strout These are non-geographic so one of those group members could be in Honolulu.

Clare McLusky: well, yes, the volunteers are all online. There’s still the advantages of being geographic when we come out of all this. Because of what Phillip was saying about sharing local resources. But the advantages of being online is that you don’t need to go anywhere.

And actually, even if you were in the same geographical area, sometimes it’s really difficult for people to get out, to travel to venues, either because energy levels are really low or time it takes, appointments and demands in their lives so it does make it more accessible to more people in that way.

Then we expect that, the groups, there might be some groups setting up, it’s about supporting each other, whatever stage or cancer is at, type of cancer you have, but who knows, there might be people who want to come together,  either because of a specific cancer they’re facing or because they want to focus on a specific approach that they want to take.

It’s exciting times. As well as having  the development of the online groups and new WIGWAM groups setting up, which are all supported. So, WIGWAM and yes to life we have a membership document for people signing up to be under WIGWAM.

There’s certain things people agree to before they can use the WIGWAM name, like, not getting advice, being the key one and nonjudgmental that we want to be very careful about how these groups run really, and that they are a place of safety and support for people to come to, not a place where they’re going to be told what to do or judged in any way and that everybody’s welcomed.  

Robin Daly: do you want to tell us a bit about the forums now, Phillip was mentioning earlier that we’ve had a few and they’re going to be ongoing. So if you could tell people  briefly what they are and what they could expect if they join them.

Clare McLusky: The online forums that are happening every other week on a Wednesday at four o’clock in the afternoon, and you can join online. It’s a live show with an expert who, in different fields, to do with, managing cancer. They’ll they usually give an introductory talk and then there’s always time for questions and answers. You can be anonymous if you want because it’s by zoom. You don’t need to show your face or your name, and you can still ask a question and you can ask questions in advance by email or using the chat function if you don’t want to speak.

These forums, which have been fantastic, the ones that have happened so far are then edited and put up on the website, we’ve got another great volunteer Fraser during that for us.

Robin Daly: what’s for the future, what is planned?

Clare McLusky: we wanted to have weekly groups going, so not just our events, but ongoing weekly groups.

The first one was probably going to happen as a weekly mindfulness group. That’s come out of that forum. There’s definitely some interest already in that. So, watch the space and we’re hoping that there’ll be an exercise one as well, following on from the exercise forum with Lizzie.

Who knows what else would come up there, but with the feedback in the forums, it would be great if they became a podcast, I’d love to see them as podcasts that were more easily accessible on different things. We could reach a wider audience because they’re the WIGWAM podcasts. I’m not quite sure how all that works. What we need to do to help heal your body and mind when you’re living with cancer. We have loads of resources that start building up from the different WIGWAM groups and what they’ve learned in there. Groups and they can post resources on the website.

We’ll have our audios of the forums with lots of different speakers on lots of exciting topics. We’ll have the weekly groups. So people can have ongoing support with exercise or mindfulness or, who knows what other groups will develop and they can be drop-in. So there’s no expectation and all this is free.

That’s the other fantastic thing. That’s what I love to say is it’s great for helping yourself.

Robin Daly: brilliant. Thanks Claire. Okay. Well look, we’re out of time going to have to end it there.  Before we finish, I would like to take this opportunity to give you a personal massive thanks for your absolute dedication to the charity.

Your determination to see it flourish, and you’ve been, and you continue to be an absolute rock. Thanks very much for your contribution today to this show. We’ve certainly got a huge new burst of momentum right now, and that’s a lot to do with you so big thanks. And thanks for telling us all about it.

Clare McLusky: Thank you, Robin. I’ve really loved being here. Yeah.

 

Robin Daly: Just to mention again, the website for WIGWAM, where you can register your interest in starting a group or joining a group, find out about the schedule and events as well as access resources. The address is WIGWAM.org.uk.

Another great resource mentioned in the show I’d like to draw your attention to is TREW FIELDS, not spelled as you might expect, so trewfields.com is where you can find out more.

 

If you listened to last week’s live show, you’ll have noticed that Clive Carol, the epic guitarist who plays the show tune. Now you can hear right a special message and a guitar piece for the show that got tragically cut short. So I’m playing it in full for you now. Thanks so much for joining us today. I do hope you take a look at the new website. I’ll be back at the same time next week with another yesterday show here on UK health radio. Goodbye.

 

 

 

Hello, it’s Clive Caroll here, and I’m sending congratulations to the Yes To Life show on their five-year anniversary. Thanks very much for starting and ending the shows with my guitar playing over the years. I’m sitting at home during lockdown and right now I’ve got a guitar on my lap and I thought, I’d play you a classic. I hope you like it.