Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcript has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hi and welcome to the Yes to Life show on UK Health Radio. I’m Robin Dally, host for the show and founder of Yes to Life, the UK’s integrative cancer care charity. We’re presently celebrating 20 years of supporting people with cancer with greater choice and a wealth of resources to meet the full range of challenges that they face following a diagnosis. There’s one group, a relatively small but tragically rapidly growing group, children, who, along with their parents, are seriously underserved by integrated medicine for a variety of reasons. This is a terrible situation that we hope we can do something to improve on by highlighting the issue as it’s one that few people beyond those struggling with it even realise this exists, by investigating the barriers to care and looking for creative ways around them. As part of that initiative, I’ve speak today to Francesca Wutke about an innovative approach to supporting children with cancer that she’s developed and that she’s making available direct to parents. Francesca, many thanks for coming on the Yes to Life show as my guest today. Thanks so much for having me. So, I’ve been making efforts recently to highlight the immense difficulties that are faced by children with cancer and their parents in terms of the massive lack of resources that they’re faced with. So, this is for a variety of reasons, some of which I’ve already explored in an earlier show, but I’m talking to you today as your CEO and founder of an organisation that’s called NEN, which is working to respond to this lack of resources in a particular way. So, people be working creatively in this arena. They usually have some personal back story as the general public has got not very much aware of how dire the situation is. So, I’m interested to know what brought you to set up a company specifically aiming to help children with cancer.

Francesca Wuttke
Yeah, absolutely. You know, my career has been focused on drug development from an academic and a pharmaceutical perspective. But I really wanted to do something that had more direct impact on patients lives. And when I looked into different areas, I was really struck by how key solutions exist for children. I had worked on a pain solution in another role that I had. And so how readily you can translate behavioral therapies onto a digital platform. And when I explored the oncology, the pediatric oncology space, I was really struck by how pervasive a problem this was for kids and families with the diagnosis of cancer. And how I couldn’t really find any solutions that were addressing this. When I done a bit deeper and started speaking to physicians, practicing pain, pediatric pain psychologists, when I started talking to families, it was really overwhelming how similar their stories were. That aside from the initial diagnosis of cancer, which is obviously devastating for families, they routinely expressed to me how that managing their child’s pain through this journey was the most difficult part. So with that information in mind, I started exploring how we could address pain for these kids. And I thought, what better way than leveraging play in children, because children love to play, whether they’re healthy children or sick children, kids are kids. So we started exploring the gamification of cognitive behavioral therapy as a mechanism to deliver the requisite skills that these kiddos need to help with not only the management of their pain, but their interpretation of their pain. And help them change some of the patterns and the emotions associated with that pain in a meaningful way. And then, of course, help the parents on that process and on that journey as well. So the solution consists of an app for kids, as well as a supportive tool for parents as well.

Robin Daly
I’m just fascinated you have this, obviously, you’ve got quite a significant career behind you in drug development and mergers and acquisitions should do with drugs and everything. So, this is quite a sidestep, in a way, to address a problem which, of course, a mainstream approach would be a drug approach, wouldn’t it, to pay? So, just what prompted that?

Francesca Wuttke
Yeah. It very much is. I’ve been involved in digital health now for about 10 years and feel strongly that because of the access problems that many healthcare systems are facing, it’s somewhat of a panacea. Many of these families in the oncology space are told that in order to see a pain psychologist, they’re put on wait list for many times up to 12 months. As a mother, I have three teenage boys I can’t imagine being told to wait 12 months if my child were in pain, but digital solutions can bridge that access gap and really help these kids. It was a bit of a sidestep and I had a lot of folks and a lot of colleagues questioning why I was doing this and why I was leaving a role in a pharma company to do this or not going back to venture capital investing, which I was doing for a while. I really just wanted to do something that had a bit more impact and that use what I’ve learned to help kids and to help them and their families really fill the gap in terms of medical practice.

Robin Daly
All right, so maybe describe this as a bit of a passion project.

Francesca Wuttke
It very much is. It’s been an incredible journey over the past two and a half years with a lot of highs and lows. The highs always come with talking to parents and the most fun is working with kids. But when we speak to clinicians, which we do on a daily, weekly basis, the unmet need for for what we’re trying to do is really hammer it home because these clinicians are so overwhelmed, they just can’t get to all the kids that need their help. So they welcome the solution.

Robin Daly
Of course, the other aspect of this is very much around the empowerment that’s involved in actually giving people a solution, which doesn’t require a clinician’s appointment. And you get to see the clinician for 10 minutes after you’ve waited months, but of course the pain that you’re dealing with could be 24-7 or at any time anyway. And so having resources is so important. Okay, so you’re based in Spain, Barcelona, I believe. Yes. But you’ve got an English version of your website. We do. This is A and N dot health. And I’m guessing the UK is amongst your target audience.

Francesca Wuttke
Yeah, so we’re really excited to have launched the solution direct to parents in the UK, the US, Spain, and Portugal, and English, Spanish, and Portuguese. My background, I’m trained as a scientist, so I didn’t want to release anything until all the rigorous clinical testing had been done, even though we have tested it with kids and with clinicians and families. But we ended up releasing it much sooner than we had planned, and that’s because the parents asked us to. They said, look, there’s nothing. Get us something. We recognize it might be early, but we’re happy to have it and to try it. And we spent a lot of time making sure that it was safe for kids and for their families, with clinicians, with practicing pain psychologists, because it is physician agnostic and it is self-directed. So we wanted to make sure that we weren’t doing harm. We only have the potential to help.

Robin Daly
Yeah absolutely right. So your company you called it NEN nice and simple and memorable but where does that come from? Is it an acronym or what?

Francesca Wuttke
Yeah. Well, it’s a nod to where the company is incorporated. I’m American. I was born and raised in New York, but I’ve been living in Europe for the past 15 years. We live in Barcelona and then means kids in Catalan. It took us a while to come up with the name. We wanted something that children could pronounce first and foremost because this is for them and that they can pronounce across different languages and countries. Also, because it is for children, we spent a lot of time making sure that it didn’t mean anything untoward in any language. It’s easy to say across cultures and across languages and it’s quite short, so it’s easy for kids to ask for.

Robin Daly
Absolutely. Right. Yeah. Okay. So on to your actual offering now. So you’ve decided to home in on on this particular under resourced area of pediatric cancer support pain management. So enormously important. I know this from personal experience, the kind of pain that children are likely to suffer along the way. And also the immense additional pain that parents suffer helplessly witnessing their child suffering. It’s traumatic stuff. Yeah. So you claim to have an evidence based tool for pain management. So what is it?

Francesca Wuttke
So we’ve leveraged what clinicians use in face-to-face therapy tools that are known collectively as cognitive behavioral therapy, but it’s really behavioral techniques that we teach to the kids so that they can address their pain in the minute. But the goal is that they can draw on these tools when they’re in pain outside of the gaming experience. And then, you mentioned that parents told us they feel very helpless. So we give them tools to help them help their kids get the best outcomes out of these techniques. So when a child completes a module, which to them looks like a game, an activity on the platform, the parents can understand the clinical rationale behind what the child has learned. They often get a little video that demonstrates some of the skills that were learned. And then we give them some tips and tricks that they can use with their child, and whether that’s what we call in the app, belly breathing, but taking a minute as an example, breathing. It really resets the parasympathetic nervous system and allows for the pain to be interpreted and managed in a different way. And this was confirmed with what’s true in the scientific literature and what works in the clinic. So we provide a number of different approaches, behavioral techniques that can help the children.

Robin Daly
we’ve got a bit of feedback from some of your users on what this has done for them.

Francesca Wuttke
we’ve started with testing with kids and parents in hospital settings. So, you know, to get their views on how they like it, on what impact it’s having on their lives. Our most fun days are those when we get to work with the kids directly and we show them the solution and they give us feedback. We call them our NEN testers. we’ve been working with kids from inception because it’s really important to provide something that they enjoy because otherwise they’re not going to use it. And we know we’re up against Peppa Pig and Fruit Ninja and Minecraft and Fortnite, you know, so we really do want it to be fun for them. We spent a lot of time and effort and resources and money to make sure that it’s engaging for the kids. they quite like it. And they also take their role as NEN testers very seriously. And we had a couple of kids, we always preface it by, you know, this is to help kids in pain. You may not be in pain in the minute, but remember a time when you were and the work that you do will help other children. that sense of altruism is really important for these kids to know that they’re doing something that can benefit other children in their situation or potentially in a worse situation. We had a little girl who was about eight years old. The platform has been designed for kids from seven to 12, so school-aged children that can read. she was eight and I was asking her questions as she was going through the different games and she put her hand up and she said, wait, I’m working. So she was taking it very, very seriously. I had never been called out by an eight year old before, but I was happy to do it. then they gave us their feedback at the end.

Robin Daly
Yeah, very nice. And it’s interesting that you’re kind of pulling on altruism in children is you think of that really as a kind of adult capacity. But yeah, it’s actually can be pulled on in children too.

Francesca Wuttke
Absolutely. And it’s actually a really important part of positive psychology that helps them achieve autonomy over themselves and over their pain. I imagine. It seems secondary, but it’s actually part of the therapy itself. In the future, we’ll have the ability for children to donate the clouds that they receive. Clouds is our logo, but also our means of currency within the app to kids who might need it. This is done virtually because we initially thought about pairing kids with similar conditions, similar diagnoses, but we’re told by the psychologist that it actually could be quite detrimental for the kids. So we do it in a way that is virtual.

Robin Daly
you said that you’ve got the two apps or the two aspects of the app i’m not quite sure is it do you see it as two separate apps or as two sections

Francesca Wuttke
There are two separate apps that can be downloaded separately. The parents have to consent the children to use it, and then the data that are collected go to the parents. The parents can share it with the healthcare team if they choose to, but it doesn’t have to be integrated into electronic medical records, which presents a real burden for our hospitals and patients.

Robin Daly
Okay, so the the the parents are obviously you were talking about ways in which it helps them to help their children Which is very empowering fantastic does actually help them directly

Francesca Wuttke
It’s a good question. We thought about offering parents support as well, but our focus, we really wanted the kids to be our focus, so the behavioral techniques are meant to benefit the child. It gets a little bit thorny from a clinical validation perspective when you have two separate patients, so we wanted our focus and our patients to be the kids.

Robin Daly
That said, of course, enabling the parent to help the child does help the parent. Of course, of course. OK, I’m guessing that there’s absolutely no concerns about using this form of pain management alongside any others that might be in place.

Francesca Wuttke
Absolutely not. And in fact, the idea that this would be used in conjunction with the background of whatever pharmacological agents the children have. One of our future goals is to test with kids and see if, you know, potentially we could attenuate some of the doses that they’re taking, but we’re not making any claims for that until we have that clinically validated. The platform has been built to address pain management broadly for kids. So whether the kids have cancer or have a pain crisis during sickle cell anemia or post-operative pain, you know, kids with cancer with other diagnoses that cause pain, even things like migraine, burn, the solution can be applied. We’re focusing on kids with cancer initially because, one, it’s the area of greatest unmet need for in terms of pediatric pain support, but also the way care is delivered is quite concentrated. So it tends to be at centers of excellence, at academic centers, at oncology centers, and so we’re targeting that population first.

Robin Daly
But you mentioned the other pocket regions. I mean, sickle cell anemia is not something I was aware of until a while ago. And what a horrendous thing that is for kids to live with.

Francesca Wuttke
it causes tremendous pain as well. they also tend to be populations which are not as well advocated for. So to be able to get them something that’s readily available that they can download. Part of the mission and vision of our company is to be able to democratize pain management at scale. So even for the solutions that can be purchased on the Apple Store or on Google Play, we have a buy one, share one approach, because we don’t want this solution only to be for kids whose parents have the ability to pay for it, but for everyone. So we allocate a license for a family who may not be able to pay for it themselves and make sure that we can get it to them.

Robin Daly
as to sort of pay it forward.

Francesca Wuttke
Exactly. The ton shoes of digital health.

Robin Daly
So obviously you’ve got a great thanks to ensure it’s safe. Are there any risks, Trimble?

Francesca Wuttke
No, there are not. We’re hoping that we can impact these children’s lives and their families. We’ll continue to run those robust clinical trials. Eventually, we’ll consider regulatory clearance in different geographies that we’re altering in the moment. We’re pretty confident that it’s safe based on the inputs we’ve had from clinicians. These are techniques that can help kids that are designed not to have any harm to them. We also introduce concepts around anxiety and depression, but in a way that’s quite light for children. So we have three virtual companions. Dolores, which means pain in Spanish, delivers the behavioral techniques associated with pain. Then Sarah and Tony are focused on the serotonergic receptor pathways that mediate mental health. So Sarah, anxiety, and Tony depression. But when we ask kids about what they think of Sarah and Tony, they say, well, Sarah is worried and Tony seems sad, but these are not meant to be replacements for therapy for anxiety and depression. It’s just to underscore the children’s feelings and their emotional reactions to pain, which are really important and not in pain management. Eventually, we’ll continue developing a second product that will focus on mental health, and that product will likely have physician attraction due to the nature of that condition.

Robin Daly
Interesting, yeah. Well, those two conditions, obviously, all too often bedfellows with pay. Exactly. They go hand in hand, so it makes complete sense that you address it in some way. Okay, can you tell us a bit more about the evidence that you’ve amassed so far? What can you tell us about what you know that it can achieve?

Francesca Wuttke
You know, so we’re, we’re still in the testing phase. What I can say is that we’re using techniques that we know do work in a face-to-face setting. Um, you know, we’re working to, um, to compare our solution with in-person care. Um, but you know, we, we’re still early days with that, but we’re, leveraging techniques that, um, that have a high degree of effectiveness, um, in the clinic and in the scientific literature. And those are the ones that we’ve incorporated into this.

Robin Daly
Right, so you’re piggybacking on existing research, basically, to move forward. Exactly. Okay, makes sense. But you’re looking to produce your own evidence, nonetheless, for your particular product. Obviously, it’s important that your interpretation of that evidence is, well, does it work?

Francesca Wuttke
That’s exactly right. Yeah.

Robin Daly
Okay, I’ve just published a podcast in which a pain management specialist was talking about common misconceptions about the origin of pain. These are things that have been in place for, you know, more than 100 years, and they lead to kind of limited thinking about the ways that pain can be managed. And he was pointing to the elements of pain that we create ourselves in response to feeling unsafe. So I imagine that the NAN offerings target exactly this aspect of pain.

Francesca Wuttke
Absolutely. So much of pain and the interpretation of pain lives in our brain. That’s not to say by any means that it’s in our head, which is, I think, commonly thought of. But the external cues that both children and adults get are processed in the brain in a way that can ameliorate or worsen pain. There’s something known as pain catastrophization, which is also very much influenced by the parents’ interpretations of pain. So in all of our assessments, we have a parent assessment as well as a child’s assessment of their own pain. Yeah, it’s actually really helpful for the clinicians because if they see the parents catastrophizing the pain, but the child thinks they’re kind of okay, that impacts how they treat, how they address pain in kids. And one of the great anecdotes that one of our clinical team members has told us that I think is really impactful, and this is adult pain, but it’s as true for children. And this idea that pain lives in your brain is there was a construction worker that his colleague noticed that he had a nail going through his boot. And so when he saw that, he immediately started screaming, was in agonizing pain. They called an ambulance, took him to hospital. They sawed off the boot to get to the foot when they realized that the nail had gone in between his toes and hadn’t affected him at all, at which time the pain immediately dissipated and he was fine. But the thought of that nail going through his foot is what was causing him pain, even though there was no physical pain present. There’s also a really interesting test or research investigation where they have someone put their hand behind their back, and then they have a waddle of a hand and they hit the hand where it looks like it would be if they place their hands on a table. And they jerk back because they think it’s their hand, even though their hand is clearly behind their back. So the brain can play tricks on us. It’s so interesting, isn’t it? It’s fascinating. And sometimes I geek out with our cognitive neuroscientists and our pediatric pain psychologists as they take me through this research. And it really underscores the importance of teaching children about pain. There’s a lot of psychoeducation that we do about where pain is, how they can manage it. And it gives them this sense of autonomy over their pain, that they can control it to some extent. That’s not to say that you can control all of your pain, but there are aspects of it that you can control. That’s what we try to teach these kids.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it’s such an empowering thing to find out because, you know, pain we’re traditionally told is the thing we’re kind of victims of and, and you immediately feel you haven’t got any agency that is not, you just had to put up with it or whatever. And so, so this different model where part of this is your response to the situation, if we know that, then immediately you have some agency. Exactly. This professor we were talking to, he was, he was giving the example of, you know, a footballer who sprays his ankle, doesn’t take any notes and just keeps going with the game because it’s so important as against somebody who’s out shopping who does it and then they’re lying on the ground in agony, you know, because they don’t have the same drive, which is making them see straight past it to their goal of what they’re trying to achieve. So those two demonstrate the power of the mind. Yeah. And, and also.

Francesca Wuttke
the power of the parent’s influence over it as well. I remember when my kids were little, there were kind of two flavors of parents in the playground. There were those that the child would fall down and they would say, oh my goodness, you know, are you okay or what happened? And catastrophize the pain and then the tears would immediately come. And then there was the other flavor, which I found myself in with three boys under three at the time, that they would fall and you would kind of clap and smile and say, okay, you’re okay, you know, off you go. Obviously if they were really hurt, the tears would have come anyway, but if they just had a bit of a skin to me or a bump, they would continue playing. So, you know, it really speaks to how impactful and the parents’ responses to their pain and how much it can impact how the child themselves feel. And, you know, the role of the psychological aspects of pain are so important and it’s so important to treat it in the moment while the child is undergoing medical trauma. There’s a paper published last year that said that 59% of adult survivors of pediatric cancer have pain and it’s what they call idiopathic pain. There’s no physical reason for this pain, but it’s because the psychological aspect of pain hasn’t hadn’t been addressed when they were children. So, you know, our goal and we could never do these studies because they would take, you know, 40 years is that the kids who are treated with behavioral techniques, whether it’s in-person care or with men would have a much lower incidence of pain as adult survivors.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it really sort of brings home how much of this stuff is kind of learned. Exactly. Because you’re absolutely right about children. Children, basically, they hurt themselves. They, you know, have a really good cry about it. Whatever it is at the time you stick the blaster on it, you say, yeah, all good. And they’re literally they haven’t got time to mess around. They’re just on. They want to get on with what they’re doing, you know. But we kind of learn in time to sort of pour over these things and make something of them. And I think, you know, we’re taught that really. And and maybe if we weren’t here, we would be much more in the moment about it and therefore experience a lot less difficulty. But anyway, you’re you’re obviously capitalising on that child ability to do that, which is a great thing. But it’s also it’s very interesting to hear you talk about that you’re you’ve got a two layered situation to deal with. It’s not the same as dealing with that because you’ve got the child. And you’ve got the parent and they’re both interacting and affecting the situation. Very interesting. OK, so there’s a lot of parents who there could be two red flags raised by the prospect of a digital game based approach for, first of all, video gaming. Everybody knows it’s very distracting for kids, but it’s got a pretty bad rap for its addictive nature, particularly for children. What would you say in reassurance to those parents?

Francesca Wuttke
So, it’s interesting. That was initially one of the hurdles we thought we would face with parents, and not all parents offer children screen time, particularly children as young as seven, which is the age that our solution is intended for and has been designed for. That all changes a bit when a child is unwell, whether they have a diagnosis of cancer or of another condition. They’re often in hospital. And so, the limitations around things like screen time often go a bit by the wayside. Our solution isn’t addictive in the sense that we very kindly and gently kick them off after they’ve been on for a little while, because we don’t want them to go down a rabbit hole and complete everything at once. We want to target them when we have their full attention. So, we don’t want them on for more than 10 minutes or so at a time. The exact number we’ll figure out as we continue researching this solution. But we think about five to 10 minutes when they’re on is enough. Not much. Whether that’s a few times a day or a few times a week, it can be self-paced. The important thing is that they really learn and embed the learnings that they’re receiving while on. So, Dolores may pop up and say, hey, you’ve done a great job today, see you tomorrow.

Robin Daly
Well it’s interesting that such short sessions on this app can have the effects that you’re claiming for it so I mean that’s that’s great I can’t imagine too many parents getting too upset by five or ten minutes occasionally. So the other red flag would be around something you’ve already mentioned which is the data involved so lots of people struggle day in day out to slow down the rate at which data is extracted from their lives by various corporations and they’re going to be highly wary of making their children vulnerable to this 21st century scourge at an early age. So what do you say to them about the way that Nen handles personal data?

Francesca Wuttke
It’s a very important question. We are fully HIPAA for the U.S. and GDPR compliant. Patient data has been in front of the beginning at the forefront of what we’re doing. The parents will own the data that are generated from the solution. We made a decision early on, much to the chagrin of some of our initial investors, I must say, to not monetize the data that are generated. Fantastic. We will not sell data. Good on you. Even though if we did, we can probably make some money. Is it resistible? Yeah.

Robin Daly
Isn’t it? It’s irresistible. Every company thinks, oh yeah, I can make some money out of these people’s data, and so they all do, and it’s just like hell for all of that.

Francesca Wuttke
we’re interested in doing, we will use the data, the context of clinical research that those parents that have consented for that work would be consented differently for that. But the solution itself, for smart, it’s not necessarily the smartest financial decision I’ve made as CEO of the company, but I think it’s one that speaks to our values and really what we’re trying to do with this solution.

Robin Daly
Okay, well I’m not a parent anymore but I’m a grandparent but I would definitely be very pleased to hear you say that. Okay, so what should interested parents do to find out more?

Francesca Wuttke
So they can go on our website, nen.health. If they’re interested in the solution, they can download it from the Apple Store or Google Play. And if they are interested in the solution but are not able to pay for it, then send us a note on our contact form. And we’ll make sure they get access to it.

Robin Daly
Fantastic. And last question is, I bet you’ve got some plans of where you’re going next. Yeah, what are you thinking of next?

Francesca Wuttke
Well, we, you know, we’re really keen to get the solution clinically validated. That of course requires quite a bit of funding. We’ve applied for some grants across Europe and across the U.S. and we’re actively fundraising to get more money in to fund that clinical research, which is quite expensive. And then what follows from that would be submission to regulators. Our goal is that this would be a cleared product by regulators that could be reimbursed by health systems like NHS and others or by private insurance companies around the world. Our goal is to get an end to kids all around the world. So, once we’ve completed our clinical validation, we’ll kick off what we’re calling the NEN Foundation, which will be funded by NGO and grassroots organizations to make sure that we can disseminate it to kids in paying wherever they are.

Robin Daly
So you can, a mass of languages you’re going to have to tackle. Um, yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah, interesting. So, you know, at the moment you can obviously, you can target parents direct. I mean, this, because they are dealing with something safe, they can just go and get it for themselves and, uh, look after themselves in that way, which is excellent, but you’re obviously, you’re wanting the advantages of having this thing recommended by the healthcare professionals direct, and even given by the healthcare professionals direct. So that’s right. Yeah.

Francesca Wuttke
we’re working with and we’re in discussions now with about 15 hospitals across Europe the UK and the US To to get the clinicians to to use it to try it and then to recommend it to their To their patient then they’re quite keen To use it. I thought there’d be some pushback from the clinicians because Some would think that this is kind of impinging on the work that that they do the opposite has been true 100% of the time that we’ve spoken to clinicians the the folks that get into Pediatrics in general usually but certainly in pediatric psychology They do it. They’re doing it for all the right reasons and they really want to help as many kids as possible They’re frustrated that they had these long wait lists of families trying to get in to see them So they’re happy to be able to offer them a solution either as an interim solution Well, the families are are on wait list or even in conjunction with therapy to just reinforce Some of the learnings that they’re getting in person

Robin Daly
That’s really good. It’s going to make it a lot easier. You don’t have the usual status quo resistance to deal with those hands of it. Great. All right. Well, very best of luck with your initiative. It’s very creative. Thank you. There’s something different. It’s so much needed. I appreciate firsthand that it’s terrible at their parents and children and they need any resources they can get. So thanks for telling us about it today, Francesca. I’m sure there’s going to be lots of parents listening who will be going out to take a look at your development there and will find it a godsend in that 24-7 nightmare that many of them can find themselves dealing with pain. So yeah, great stuff. Thank you.

Francesca Wuttke
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me and for letting me spread the word about NEN.

Robin Daly
Bye-bye.

Francesca Wuttke
Take care, have a good rest of the day.

Robin Daly
Kudos to Francesca for this initiative to put resources directly in the hands of the parents with suffering children. Do look at their website as nen.elf, and if you notice someone with a child who has cancer, be sure to pass on the information.

Robin Daly
Coming up shortly in the yes to life calendar is an event for professionals that’s called the repurposing revolution. It’s an evening event being held at Friends House in Euston on October 15 and features Jane McClelland and Dr. Michael Castro looking into the phenomenon of drug repurposing and the latest findings in this arena. It will be a fascinating and informative event and is the opportunity to attend in person or online. Find out more and book under events on the yes to life website. Thanks for joining me today, I hope you find today’s show interesting and informative. I’ll be back at the same time next week with another expert cast for the next yes to life show, goodbye.