Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcript has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hello and welcome to the Yes To Life show . I’m Robin Daly, regular host of the show and delighted to be here beginning another year of the show. 2025 is actually the 10th year that the show has been aired and that means there’s a back catalogue of almost 500 shows that are all available to listen to. If you go to the Yes To Life website that’s yestolife.org.uk scroll down the home page until you see the link to the show page. Once you’re there, you’ll see that you can search and sort through the archive for the content that interests you by looking for topics, guests or keywords.

Robin Daly
My guest to kick off the new year is a very old and dear friend of mine, Deanna Tennancour or Dee Tennancour as many people know her. Deanna has a lifetime of experience caring for people in one way or another. And so she’s an ideal person to be talking to about a subject that I’ve been wanting to give a lot more attention to for a very long time, caring. The role of carer is little appreciated by most people and carers are wildly underserved as a community in terms of support. So I’m delighted to be devoting this show to the topic with Deanna. Hello Deanna, so great to have you on the Yes To Life show.

Deanna Tennancour
It’s so good to be here, Robin.

Robin Daly
Right. So this is your first time on the show and that is although I’ve known you for well, more than the entire lifespan of years to life and you’ve been involved in healthcare all that time and long before. So the reason that now’s the moment that I want to talk to you is about a particular topic you’re completely experienced in and that’s the role of carer for someone with serious illness. Now, in addition to your enormous experience, you’re now moving into the role of health coach under the title Cause Wellbeing. So we’ve always spoken about the challenges of being a carer at yestolife but we never really focused on it and that’s something I want to start to put right now. And so I wonder, can you start out by telling us the story about how you came into nursing and what kept you in some form of supportive care for most of your life.

Deanna Tennancour
Oh my goodness, that is such a big question. I think the profession called me. And it takes me back over 40 years to trace back, but my initial inspiration, to be honest, had to do with being a midwife.

Deanna Tennancour
And I was interested in, I guess, the blessing of being able to participate in helping transition a mother, in this case, and a newborn into life. It was such a big yes to life. All right. Really. I can imagine, yeah. And when I was in nursing school in the 80s and got out of school, there were very little jobs in America in that field. The job market was tight. It probably hasn’t been that way for a long time. And so I ended up working in, after a couple of years, just general experience in a hospital, I ended up working in the community in hospice and district nursing in the UK. It would be called Home Health in America. And so over 20 years of working in end of life, I realized that I was actually midwifing, helping midwife people from one form and familiar experience of who they are and who the family knows them to be into a change, a massive change. And then in that, I realized it was such a rich territory. It was never just working with a single person. It was working with a family. So that’s where the passion came alive in me was the opportunity to get to meet and work with people at a delicate time. So that was the original. And then all along the way, I have been passionate about wellbeing.

Deanna Tennancour
And then I ended up getting a master’s in Chinese medicine, years of yoga, inner practices. So these things have woven together now to work more around wellbeing with the whole unit. So meaning not only the person going through a change, whether it’s cancer or another disorder of the nervous system or whatever, but the whole family. So that’s kind of as short as I can answer to hopefully give some context for our conversation.

Robin Daly
Yeah, very good. That’s great. Yeah. And just to make clear to our listeners, you’re American, you’re in America now, but actually you’re very experienced in UK healthcare as well. Do you want to say something about that quickly?

Deanna Tennancour
Sure. I arrived in the UK in January 2004 and ended up leaving, returning to America end of the year 2016. So it was nearly 13 years. And for a large portion of that, I felt very welcomed by the UK with my American particular experience in healthcare and work in the NHS for nearly five years. Yes. And that role was managing the care home support team. It was a team across three boroughs, Lambeth, Southwark, and Bromley, I think. And we were working to uplift the standard of care in nursing homes, as well as looking at caregiver roles. That was condoned into a leadership role to uplift the standard of nursing and district nursing around case management. And then I worked many years privately in the UK around dementia, end of life care, and various situations where caregiving, I did some stints as an in-home, RN, caregiver private, which was a very unique view into what families are going through with either long-term chronic condition or end of life care. So it was a really kind of privileged view from the inside because I’d always been a professional who would either visit or they’d come to see me in person. Yeah.

Robin Daly
It’s a very interesting mix isn’t it because it’s a very intimate circumstance you’re in on there really and you’re a trusted figure coming into a family in that way and yet you are a professional as well so you bring your skills and your professionalism and everything else so really interesting mix. Okay so um uh carers now I think we both know that there are sort of traits of carers there are certain behaviors ways of being uh ways of looking at the role and everything that an awful lot of people share when they suddenly find themselves in this role of carer and they’re not all helpful towards themselves necessarily so I wonder if we can just go over some of the key things that you’ve seen uh people do in the role of carer the way they relate to themselves and to the person they’re caring for and to the family around.

Deanna Tennancour
Sure and it’s such a great question Robin and there’s it’s a vast answer so we’ll only scratch the surface.

Deanna Tennancour
I think one of the key elements that occurs almost automatically is a kind of selflessness. It’s a willingness to put aside one’s own agenda in order to be a supportive presence and carer to this other person. That’s the universal thing that I see even sometimes when people are doing that professionally, but certainly when people are in family situations or in a more intimate circumstances. So it’s a kind of selflessness. In some ways in that, it’s a willingness to put aside one’s own needs. That’s perhaps the definition of selflessness or part of it. These needs could even mean one’s finances. One isn’t able to work as much. It could mean one’s personal well-being care with even how one eats or has time for sleep or exercise. So there’s that willingness to put oneself aside. There’s also in some ways, there can be a kind of isolation that can slip in between the cracks because the priority is the loved one. That is the priority. So those are two elements of it, and then I don’t want to go on too long without giving you a chance to respond, but I think that kind of putting oneself aside with willingness and love or a sense of duty even are some of the cardinal features of being a carer.

Robin Daly
Yeah, so in a way, it’s a great thing. It’s a wonderful thing that people are prepared to do this, but there’s a kind of lack of perspective in it somewhere because of course, if you suffer yourself in some way, or you debilitate yourself in some way, then you’re not as good a carer. So you actually sort of pulling the rug under your own feet potentially by taking that kind of view. So why do you think it happens like that? Why do people not see that bigger picture?

Deanna Tennancour
Oh man, it might even just be part of our human heart. We care. We care. I think I was contemplating this a little bit on this morning, my morning walk with my dog, and a couple of things came up and, you know, in other times, not the modern times that we live in, so much, particularly in the rich Western countries, this occurs within the context of an extended multi-generational family. So it doesn’t occur that this is even a stepping aside of one’s own life. This is life. Right. This part of our family, this part of our community, even in many, you know, smaller communities or more older cultural traditions, so that the context that we live in, we have our own house, our own garden, our own everything. Right. We live in a much more individualistic paradigm. And so it seems almost like an anomaly in some ways. It’s a strange word for someone to step out of the pursuit of one’s own life and to care for. But I don’t think this has always been the case. I think it’s kind of a modern, I could be wrong, but this is my musing on it. I think it’s a more modern feature of the cultures we live in.

Robin Daly
Interesting. Something I noticed as well is that if you say you have a parent who needs care, it’s quite often quite divisive amongst the children. You literally have like, you know, three children say, no way. I’m not going anywhere near it. And the fourth one feels they have to do everything, you know? And it’s like, well, if I don’t do it, nobody will. And that seems to be kind of, okay. There’s just like, and it happens quite often. I seem to hear it quite often, but that’s the case. But the one is very unsupported, actually feels it deeply as well. Feels it’s wrong, but they feel they have to do it as well because somebody’s got to do it.

Deanna Tennancour
I know. I think it’s a good observation. In some ways, I think it kind of represents some of the fractured, oh, family and cultural environments that we live in. And to step into a caring role when we do have our own lives, and I’m not saying this is bad, this is how we’ve evolved, this is how it is. But when one does decide to step into a more intimate role, say in this example with a parent, all those unresolved tensions in all the relationships that have been there for years and years and years, they will not go away. They could even be accentuated.

Deanna Tennancour
Yeah, so it’s interesting point because it kind of brings up that not only is the person willing to step into that, probably going to carry some story and flack, I don’t know, those are the words that are coming to my mind from siblings and even within themselves, it’s another strand of the carer. Yes, can be, can be.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it can be. Another side of it which strikes me is that there’s this thing whereby, yeah, there’s this thought of selflessness to be like, and setting aside of oneself, going on with the actual carer, but also, you know, there is this intense focus on the person who’s ill, naturally, that’s where it’s going to go, and, you know, in my experience, I can think of carers who seem to be suffering more stress than the person who’s being cared for, for their health, and within that, there’s a kind of lack of recognition that that’s happening. It’s actually all the attention is still from everybody else on the person who’s ill, and the carer is just like, you know, off the side somewhere, even though they’re burning out, you know, and it’s a curious thing, but they, they must be affected by that lack of recognition for the fact that they are giving beyond anything reasonable.

Deanna Tennancour
Absolutely. It’s a lack of acknowledgement, isn’t it, you know, that can occur. And one can even undervalue one’s own contribution because of the extra stresses that they may be experiencing. And even guilt or shame because of course they want this loved one to get what they need. They want that. That’s why they’re there. You know, I would think for the most part, you know, if it’s somebody undergoing a cancer healing journey, then that care person wants to give everything they can to be able to help that person, you know, achieve a higher level of well-being along that. And so, yeah, I think it’s that lack of acknowledgement even to oneself that can erode one’s confidence or self acknowledging a need for boundaries, for example, need for boundaries, a need for asking for help, a need for saying, okay, yes, I can do these things and I haven’t slept for a whole week, right? And or I need help with something, I need to help. It might be something very practical like I need help with meals.

Deanna Tennancour
especially at a time it’s hard because you want to eat extra well and so that can be very labor intensive, but there may need to be help brought in to support that person, those persons, that family unit, whatever kind of family of choice, it doesn’t matter. It’s a family unit that is attempting to sell these stormy seas. So it’s sometimes just very pragmatic things, but there could be a loss of recognition of need for boundaries and need for asking for help.

Robin Daly
Well, that’s one of the reasons I think doing this interview is so important. It’s just, I don’t think somebody who is not in that role or has not done it has any idea really what’s going on. They probably are not thinking that person might need help, so they’re not offering it, you know. And yeah, so I think that it’s a major issue and it’s kind of stereotypical. Yeah, I was just thinking about another factor that probably drives a lot of what goes on in this circumstance is that so many people have issues to do with self-worth and normally they can manage all that and just get along through life. You know what I mean? And of course it has an effect everywhere they go, but it’s not a major, you know, it doesn’t impact their life too majorly. Put them in this circumstance where they feel they shouldn’t have any needs themselves, you know, they shouldn’t ask for anything, they should be able to do this, they should be able to give to their friends, there’s all these imperatives weighing on them I’m sure about what they should and shouldn’t do under this circumstance. And you know, a lack of self-worth would quite naturally prop up a lack of self-care under these circumstances, which it might not have emerged in that way otherwise, but it kind of shines a spotlight in the area.

Deanna Tennancour
Hmm. Yes, exactly. Something you said that it might not emerge in other ways, but it comes up full force under these circumstances. And a person can just feel like you were talking on all the shoulds. It is such a prison for one to live under that kind of perfectionism that is devalues one’s contributions. It pathologizes it in a way that’s unfair. It’s unfair.

Robin Daly
Yeah. You know, we’ve all been brought up, there’s a kind of a deep long culture from religion of the good, bad thing and the selfish, selfless as being two opposites. These are things which are, but you’re either one or the other, you know? And this is, I think, is a great scenario to show how untrue that actually is. In my mind, there’s no such thing as selfish or selfless. I can’t do something which is good for me, which is bad for you. It’s not good for me either, actually, if I do that. Actually, there’s only good things and bad things. There’s not, you know, that kind of separation. So this one actually shows, this example shows that up very well. Basically, if you think that selfless is having no need to yourself artificially or denying them all and trying to meet somebody else’s needs all the time, well, you’ll fail, actually. You’re on a root failure because you’re not looking after the whole picture, which includes you. You know, you’re part of the picture. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it’s worth considering these artificial ideas about separating selfish and selfless. Generally speaking, if it’s good, it’s good for everyone.

Deanna Tennancour
Yes, I hear you and you can see it. I’ve seen it in my own life for sure, working with nurses and physicians and other people and caring for acupuncturists for that matter. Anybody working in a service position where they’re helping people, the need for having your own well-being matter to you and to have boundaries with and awareness around the situation is really vital. You can’t do that work successfully and have your home life in shatters. Or if your own health and well-being falters, and I’ve seen so many situations that hinge on a carer who’s drowning.

Deanna Tennancour
I was thinking about this today how I wish that when we went to have an appointment with our GP or anybody that we’re seeing, that there was a question in there, are you a caregiver for anyone important to you?

Deanna Tennancour
And then to have then second two questions that question the second question would be Not Do you have a support system? Yes. No that person might not have no head, but the second question should be I think Tell me tell me something about your support system

Robin Daly
Right. A little bit more detail actually. It’s not on-off. Yeah, right.

Deanna Tennancour
tell me about it. And to have it valued, to find ways for the institutions in our lives to begin to ask that question just point blank. That was my secret push from my walk this morning.

Robin Daly
Okay. Very good. All right. So, look, let’s move on to the sort of the positive side of it. Well, what can we do, the practical steps that carers can take to improve their situation and therefore become even better carers? I suspect the biggest hurdle to becoming aware of these is the lack of awareness that there is a problem at all, or that there’s a potential crisis within them if they don’t stop. But with all your professional caring done, of course, the awareness that you’re doing a job here and you have to do it well, you have to actually look after yourself, I’m sure is easier to come by than it is when it’s your brother or sister or daughter or whatever. So, you must have some good strategies there that you know from a professional life that can be helpful to people.

Deanna Tennancour
Well, I’m a big fan of taking breaks, stepping back, and of in situations, say, where it’s maybe not as intensive as some of the situations I’ve been in, of early on in stepping into the role. And this could be something you guys could really educate on, to give people a little script or a list of questions to ask themselves. For example, who can you call to give you a break? A respite is so important. Just stepping back. Who can you call? If you need help with transportation, with meals, with just giving yourself, say, two days off in a row, who could you call? And so I think that’s what I would see is just to just educate people right up front. How are you? Even just saying, how are you? Sometimes people don’t have anyone. I’ve seen people in care roles. No one asked them even that simple. So like you said, somebody also can slip into a care role without realizing it’s even happening. It can happen so darn fast.

Deanna Tennancour
So I kind of feel like there’s ways, and there’s so much more now out there, especially in like disease specific or illness specific conditions. There’ll be support groups for CARES or age related or some of the charities like you have, Robin, you’re beginning to acknowledge these things. So I feel like it’s important, and even we could even educate the person who’s needing the support to remember to say, oh, are you, do you see anything? It’s just kind of some mutuality. It’s the mutuality so that it’s not all going out, but that there’s something coming back for the person’s own heart.

Robin Daly
Very much so. So what do you think are the kind of red flags that carers should look out for, the things that they might just steam straight past, but actually they shouldn’t?

Deanna Tennancour
Yes, just a lack of sleep, emotions, maybe for getting frustrated and angry, short-tempered, isolation, isolating, cutting off from friends and support circles because you’re too exhausted. Just those kinds of signs of being overworked, overstretched, without having a chance to come back to middle ground. I mean, it’s a big topic. It’s hard to know sometimes how to just know.

Robin Daly
That’s the one you mentioned there about social connections and not having any time for a life apart from the caring. It seems extraordinarily important to me. There’s the side of it of other people knowing what you’re going through and maybe being able to help in some way, but even apart from that, just having some sort of life that is not about being a carer. It’s just you enjoy a cup of coffee or something with somebody else. I think it must be enormously important at those times.

Deanna Tennancour
I think enormously important, and I think something we were just touching on that can happen in a care role is it’s an outpouring with nothing coming in, and so it can feel lonely because you’re missing just that more back and forth. You’re trying to give your best to this person who’s maybe frail or sick, you know, or undergoing that are harsh. So to just be around healthy situations, sometimes I love that idea. You just had of just having a cup of coffee where there’s a back and forth conversation where you’re giving and you’re receiving, you know?

Robin Daly
dialogue and normal interests as well, the kind of things that do occupy you otherwise. Yeah. Very important. Now, when we were talking about doing this interview, you mentioned something which is foreign to me, but maybe you can explain about it. You said focusing on micro-mems, so come on, tell us about that.

Deanna Tennancour
Yes, one thing I love to work on my clients with, and even in my own life, is that we is a way to come back to the present moment and to realize that in this present moment there’s tremendous value. There’s value in feeling alive, in knowing we are alive. There’s value in a sip of tea that just brings some relief and comfort. This is such a good question and I haven’t answered it specifically like this. Micro-moments. A moment is a microcosm of the larger life we live within. We often live in the past, in our emotions, our thinking, our grudges, our wishes for the future. We often strive for the future, who we want to be, how we want things to be, but the future really is an idea floating around in our brains. The past is no longer here except for the fact that we keep reading its book. We keep reading chapters. What I feel we often lose touch with is the power of this very moment to nourish, to elevate, to connect. I often see this or suggest to people that when we can touch this moment, it’s like a prayer for how we live that has tremendous power in it to keep us going, to fuel us with some high octane fuel.

Robin Daly
Well, it’s a great way to look at things when you’re basically time-starved and feeling like you’re on a treadmill, maybe, that actually this is available to you at the moment. Brilliant. Another thing I was thinking about as a kind of resource for carers, another well they could draw on, possibly is nature. We haven’t spoken about that. Does that fit into your experience?

Deanna Tennancour
Absa-blanken-lutely. Oh, nature, the natural world, it always is now. It’s always in the now and it’s full of life force energy. It’s got beauty or not. It might be dusty and broken and windswept and stark, yet there’s something about being in the natural world where we fit, we belong, we aren’t judged, we are automatically connected through our own feet, through our breath to what’s around us and it doesn’t ask anything. We might have a garden that we get to nurture and give to, but typically, nature isn’t really asking anything of us. I don’t think so. So when we go out in nature and even if we just sit with our feet on the ground, there’s lots of evidence starting to come in now. I think the Japanese came up with this concept of forest bathing. Yeah. I live in a forest.

Deanna Tennancour
I’m bathed. So I thought, what? But then, yes, especially if you don’t have access to nature regularly, going out and just seeing your time there is like you’re taking a shower, or you’re taking in for you. You can probably hear my passion in it. I feel that there’s just enormous spaciousness and capacity for renewal by spending time in nature.

Robin Daly
very much. So yeah, it’s interesting that it has become the, you know, actual prescribed therapy for people to be in nature, because we can actually now measure the effect that it has on people, you know, biochemically, it’s extraordinary really. And yeah, it’s a great resource. Okay, and

Deanna Tennancour
And one more point on this, it’s kind of funny, isn’t it? Because people throughout history of indigenous people, for example, this has been part of their life and their deep wisdom forever. It’s not new yet for us who haven’t had the experience of living with nature as an ally, not just as an ally, but as a needed and governing force. Forget it. We are the ones who need to remember. So it is super cool that research is now starting to accentuate that.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it’s a very interesting circle we’re coming around. I think we’ve been on this arc of disconnection from who and what we actually are, more and more and more disconnected, more abstraction, more living in the world of ideas, all this stuff going on. And we’re now finally coming around to having to do what I call the sides of the bleeding of this, which is proving that things are just about common sense are actually true with science. Yeah. And that brings us back, finally, it’s a way of helping us to get back to a common sense. It’s happening in all sorts of areas of life, I find, but I suppose it’s a good thing because I think it’s working. Yeah. Okay. So there’s one last but very important scenario that I want to home in on, and that’s caring for someone who’s actually dying. Now this is something you’ve done over and over, and in the case of my family who helped us when my daughter, Brianna, was dying 20 years ago, now she was skillfully supporting her and our family in those last hours. So I wonder if you’d speak a bit about this unique aspect of caring.

Deanna Tennancour
Gosh, yes. I feel like it’s the pinnacle of caring. It’s our last chance, in a way. It’s our last chance to come through in whatever way we can. And to, you know, human life is so complex. It’s messy. It’s unpredictable. It’s always changing. And yet, the one thing that will never change is that we are all going to die. And we can’t control when, how, or where, under most circumstances. So I feel like it’s this unique opportunity to allow the best of our mutual humanity to share time. It highlights that our time together is precious, short, and rare. And so it’s an opportunity also to put aside grievances and fears, and to just know that in this moment, this person I love, I want them to know they’re loved. And to really find the inner wish and courage to witness what you do not want to see on, what you don’t want to see experience or have to go through, yet here we are. So it’s a sacred moment of the deepest kind of love I feel to share that precious event.

Robin Daly
And to actually take that role, are there particular things that you feel, particular resources you draw on, particular things to be in mind of? I don’t know, just ways that you would prepare or look after yourself or whatever in the presence of that particular circumstance.

Deanna Tennancour
like different, everyone has a different view of the God of their own understanding of faith. So, you know, Buddhists have a view, Christian has a view, indigenous has a view, Muslim, all the faith traditions have a way for some people that can help them lean in to it with more courage. I feel like if you get the grace of having a death that you know is coming and you get to prepare, that calling on professional hospice teams and or your spiritual support group can help you learn how to watch for some of the cardinal things that happened during that event and know how to be supported. I think for the many people who are spiritual practitioners of any kind, it can be an enormous teacher in and of itself around the value of the sacred, the value of one another, the truth of the Buddha says the one thing that is change, the truth of impermanence. This is going to sound so weird, but the liberation, when you can step out of the way and just be witness and participate in a very natural event.

Deanna Tennancour
The kind of love that is, that also can feed you further down the road, or even in that moment it can give you something else in your tank rather than loss. can help balance the loss with love.

Robin Daly
Right. I mean, so many people speak about being present at someone’s death as a privilege, and it’s obviously a very special thing to witness and be part of, and to actually be present that as, obviously, for most human beings, there’s fear involved here, you know, their own mortalities brought right up in their face, quite apart from the loss of the person who, that might be another cause of fear. But all of that is allowed to be encompassed, and you still stay there. There’s an opportunity for something very special, I think.

Deanna Tennancour
That’s a beautiful way to say it, Robin. And really, I feel like it’s also kind of an extreme example of many moments that we have in our life that we also don’t want to see. We don’t want them to be the way they are. They’re hard yet. But if we can stay there with love and curiosity and continue to find a way to serve, we are helping one another live through this darn thing called being a human being. And that’s a privilege that we get to help. It brings tears to my eyes, because I think of you and Nancy, and we’ve been friends for so long. And just the joy that comes from staying even with friendships, with your relationships, through time, through change, yet we get to serve one another’s humanity. And what a gift is that.

Robin Daly
Yeah, very much so. Well, look, I think, you know, we’re going to need to round off now, but just to say that, um, talking about caring generally, there’s, I think there’s, there’s an amazing amount to be, uh, gained from being a carer. Yeah. Uh, there’s an amazing amount for the person to, uh, who’s in trouble to be, but sustain them to maybe help them even to death, still, uh, it’s a remarkable opportunity in so many ways, but for that to be realized does take care. And it does take, uh, I think the phrase you used for it was self-compassion. We haven’t said that today, but I heard you say that before. Um, you know, that has to be part of the picture if we want to, for the, for the best to come out of this in every way that it could, uh, I think we have finished on a note of being in praise of caring is a great and wonderful thing. But it takes care for the carers.

Deanna Tennancour
Yes. And I would say, and it takes care for the carers. Exactly. And for all of us to start recognizing, oh, you know, my neighbor, my neighbor’s caring for somebody. I wonder if they might want a meal once a week and that we just start kind of like perforating the social isolation that a lot of us live in and that we all just care for the people we see who are caring for loved ones and could use a little extra TLC. Yeah. It’s a win-win. It’s a win-win. And when we give to our neighbors like that or whoever our neighbor is, we also get something in return, you know, we give and receive. That’s that mutuality of the human heart that keeps it beating.

Robin Daly
Absolutely. All right, we’re going to have to end it there. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Diana. Well, what a subject. There’s so much to talk about, so much to understand about BiggerCare as such depth to it. But yes, thanks so much for sharing some of your massive experience and wisdom gained from caring and caring and caring over and over again.

Deanna Tennancour
Well, it was my honor and privilege to have this conversation with you. So thank you for inviting me to talk with you.

Robin Daly
So pleased to have brought the topic of carers under the spotlight, at least a little. I hope that discussion with such a seasoned carer is some help to any carers who are listening. And if you’re being cared for, or if you know someone who is a carer, maybe send them a link so they can listen to piano. Also I’d like to give those details of the brand new yestolife wigwam carers group for starting out. It’s online, so you can join wherever you are, and to find out more, go to the yes-to-life website, again that’s yestolife.org.uk, scroll down the homepage a little until you see the link to our support groups. Once you’ve looked around, there’s a contact form for the support groups that you can fill in to find out more. And if you missed last week’s show, you may want to make a point of listening as I was speaking to our wigwam support groups coordinator, Sara Spinks, about our program of group activities. As I mentioned earlier, you can get to last week’s and any other past show on the show page on the yes to life website. Thanks very much for listening today, I hope you’ll join me every week during the coming year. We’re still celebrating the 20th anniversary of yes to life, so there’s going to be plenty going on. Listen in next week at the same time for the next yes to life show.