Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcription has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hello and welcome to the Yes to Life show on UK health radio. I’m Robin Daly, host for the show and founder of the UK charity Yes to Life, over 20 years has been extolling the virtues of taking a much wider view of what constitutes good cancer care. An approach that now goes under the title of integrative medicine or integrative oncology to give it its cancer specific name. In last week’s show I was speaking to functional nutritionist Dawn Waldron about her recent exploration of the biochemistry of cancer and the perspectives that this was opening up for her on the process of cancer and what’s involved in both promoting and slowing that up. We got to the end of the show and it was clearly further to go so I’ve invited Dawn back again this week for part two.

Dawn Waldron
Hi Robin, nice to speak to you again. Thanks for having me back so quickly.

Robin Daly
Yeah, welcome back to part two. And the reason being for the part two, I decided while we’ve made a good start on exploring your new ideas around cancer, the job was not done. We need to give it some more airtime. So to compound matters, I’ve got to say you’ve been coming up with more ideas since we last spoke. So it’s important to say that anyone listening who missed part one would do very well to listen to that first, to give today’s discussion the full context it deserves. But in addition, I thought I’d just give those who did hear part one the chance to get back up to speed. And I’m going to attempt a Previously On, such as you get on an American multi episode TV series. So we said out last time with a bit of a pangalactic view of the origins of the human species, and the way that complex life forms evolved from the symbiotic relationship of a cell and a bacteria.

Robin Daly
And then we investigated some of the ways in which things may have gone wrong in recent times, through some of the directions we’ve taken as a species, in particular in regard to our relationship with bugs, which has been less than respectful of their importance. And then the next thing we spoke about was something called thermogenic uncoupling, a sort of natural safety valve that our cells employ to protect them from a surface of energy, and how this mechanism has become increasingly overused and underlined by our modern lifestyles, resulting in cellular energy problems and growing disease, maybe cancer.

Robin Daly
You shared your light bulb moment in which you changed your view of food from simply as fuel, from metabolism to seeing it as information. When we eat the wrong things, we send the wrong messages. All this is ready to focus on the microbiome, the vast collection of bugs that we’re beginning to realize is an essential part of our makeup, and the mitochondria, the bacteria element of our cells that’s involved in driving cellular energy, which has of course been the focus of the metabolic science of cancer for some time. Interestingly, both of these focuses are on bugs, those critters we have such an ambivalent relationship with. And where I think we arrived was you saying that when the communication networks fail, and this can be the result by disrespect for the bugs in our makeup, there you begin to see all the hallmarks of cancer start to appear,

Robin Daly
the behaviors that have been identified as being particular to the process of cancer. And you ended up on a call for care of our microbiome, care for the condition of our gut wall, care for our mitochondria, and what we ask of them, and an expanded view of food as not only fuel but also communication, claiming that this could substantially impact the incidence of cancer and our ability to recover from it. Okay, how do I do?

Dawn Waldron
a masterful summary, I think, and I’m sure you just put that into chat GPT, didn’t you?

Robin Daly
What’s that then? What’s that then, Dawn?

Dawn Waldron
So I think now I think that’s absolutely right and and I think that’s I mean we really covered a lot didn’t we and I have to say I did myself the the torture of listening back this afternoon before we do this today in order to sort of review myself what we said and think about whether there are any gaps in what I said that I need to or that I’d like to fill in for people but because I’m aware that this is rambling in some ways and I’d love to make it concise for people I’d love to you know isn’t it nice if we can make it a bit pithy and normally I like to be able to do that but it’s difficult when you’re speaking off the cuff sometimes and you haven’t had ages to prepare and which is of course partly why I write my blog because I write my blog meticulously and it takes a long time but I can get to the form of words that I’m happy with so but we’re still going to try and do that this afternoon, both we are, both we are.

Robin Daly
Yeah, and so there’s a message there that people are really interested to read your blog, of course, and then they’re able to take their own ace through it and it’s all very visually set out, as you say.

Dawn Waldron
Yes, that’s true, actually, yeah.

Robin Daly
hopefully this is what draw people in I think that’s what my intention is here this is very interesting stuff and I hope people want to look into it some more

Dawn Waldron
I hope so because I think it’s very empowering. I find it empowering and I know from 20 years of working with people who had cancer, I never ceased to be amazed by how much people are prepared to learn, to educate themselves in order to shift their health states and it’s mind-blowing really.

Dawn Waldron
That’s where it started for me. I’m not a biochemist at all so I take hats off to all of us for trying to understand all of this and hopefully I’ll try and shed a little bit of light this afternoon. I wanted that in a way that the simplest statement about what we’re talking about here is the importance of keeping energy moving in a forward direction through what we call the energy cycle, they’re called technically the Krebs cycle and the electron transport chain or increasingly we call it the respiratory chain and it’s a set of biochemical reactions that takes glucose or fatty acids at one end and turns them into energy at the other in the most miraculous of ways really and the whole point of trying to tune up our metabolism,

Dawn Waldron
whenever we do try and tune up our metabolism, the aim is to facilitate the throughput of fuel into making energy and in many ways that’s probably the key reason why exercise always comes out so well when we look at anything we can do to beat cancer because that’s exactly what it does, it creates a demand for energy and it makes all of these energy pathways flow in the right direction and I guess keeps it all oiled.

Robin Daly
I’d like to do a little bit of history, if you can, at this point, and just look back. So, the Krebs Cycle, okay? It’s been around a long time, hasn’t it? It has, yes. So, when did it come in? What did it say? And what’s the understanding of the Krebs Cycle that’s changed over time?

Dawn Waldron
Okay, so it came in in the 1930s. Krebs and Warburg could be found in the same lab. History was not my strong point at school, but as I understand it, we had this lovely sort of group of extremely enthusiastic German scientists, Einstein, Planck, Warburg, Krebs, and various others, names to conjure with really, who were all working together, feeding off each other, inspiring each other, and really trying to bottom out the secrets of metabolism, with, of course, we always have to remember nothing like the Levenloft technology that we’ve got now to be able to look into the cell. And it was Krebs, really, he was the first person to put on paper this, the Krebs Historical, not surprisingly.

Dawn Waldron
That’s why it’s called the Krebs Cycle, whereby he was able to show the biochemistry that we basically take acetylcoenzyme A, we pick up some oxaloacetate, and then we, through a series of carbon removal, we generate energy, we generate energy as protons, and we then send it through a series of enzymes in the mitochondrial membrane, which very cleverly create a sort of electrical charge in the membrane. If you did any physics at school, you could see it’s a bit like potential energy. You’ve got this electrical charge in the energy. So that’s a very quick and dirty explanation of what Krebs is. But the light that Nick Lane is shedding on it in this book, Transformer, is the idea that what we see as a cycle actually evolved as two halves of a circle, one of which was sort of technically oxidative and reductive,

Dawn Waldron
but they were different ways of making energy and making building blocks of the cell. So originally, if you go back far enough in evolution, and again, history not being my strong subject, I can’t tell you how long you’d have to go back, but before the cycle worked as elegantly as it does now in human cells to make energy. And so in the past, it wasn’t necessarily as efficient as it is now either. And then Otto Wahlberg also started to look at this metabolic process. And he noticed that it didn’t seem to be working in cancer cells. So what he noticed is that the glucose, which is necessary to start this to get this roundabout going, was not being pushed into the Krebs cycle, and that indeed the glucose was being metabolized in the cell cytoplasm in a very inefficient way.

Dawn Waldron
So if we just use glucose and break it down via a process called glycolysis, we get two molecules of ATP. But if we break it down and we push the molecule into the Krebs cycle, we get 36. So it’s extremely puzzling that cancer cells would be doing that. Pretty heroic to even be able to measure it at that stage in history. And he logically concluded that then the mitochondria must be damaged because obviously it’s a superior pathway. Why on earth would we not be using that to generate energy? And hold that thought because his fundamental misunderstanding and ours in perpetuity to this point is that we were determined to fear to the form of damage and we didn’t question enough. Well, what if actually something else is going on?

Dawn Waldron
And again, the Nick Lane book, quite elegantly, but in extreme detail, shows us that indeed something else was going on and that there has been a failure of scientists, that sounds so negative, but we haven’t properly understood Krebs cycle because in fact, it can go forwards, but it can also go backwards. And when Krebs cycle goes forwards, it is essentially what we’d call a catabolic state, it breaks down molecules to release energy. And when it goes backwards, it’s what we call anabolic, it builds molecules for growth. And what answer cells are doing is they are moving into growth mode. And in a very tiny nutshell, I think we’re probably all aware that we have feedback systems in the body that, you know, if you’ve got too much of something going around, you’ve probably got another molecule that’s going to come and say, okay, enough of that now.

Dawn Waldron
And what we understand is that if you have too much energy flying around in the cell, then growth doesn’t happen. Now, we could easily start another conversation here where we talk about the AMPK and mTOR pathway, which is very much in focus in cancer. And let’s come back to that. But the basis here is that cancer cells don’t want too much energy flying around, because it will inhibit their ability to grow. So sticking to glyconosis to make their two measly versions of ATP is actually better for them than sending it through the Krebs cycle to make their 36. That’s a big deal.

Robin Daly
So what I like to do is just sort of see if I’ve understood all that correctly. So we got, what we have is we have these, we’ve known for a long time, there’s these kind of two energy systems we can let ourselves get energy from, one of them being aerobic, you know, where it’s the normal process whereby, as you say, lots of energy works very well. And then we have this other one that’s been looked at as a backup system. That’s right. It’s one that comes into action when you haven’t got enough energy, like you’ve done a sprint and then it starts working. And we know it’s working because it produces lactic acid. And we feel that it makes our muscles hurt. That’s a layman’s understanding of what’s going on. Absolutely.

Dawn Waldron
I think we probably all, yeah, that’s a really good reminder, Robin, that we all sort of understand that. And we see it as a lax date, you know, well, if you haven’t got enough oxygen, but it’s difficult to, what we haven’t ever tended to think is, well, some cells prefer that. And basically, cells that are trying to grow, even stem cells are more likely to use this glyconocyst, the anaerobic form, the less efficient form, and cells that are very busy making proteins, specialized cells in breast and lungs and prostate and all that sort of thing that are very busy need a lot of energy for their work. And so they’re using the oxygen fuel form.

Robin Daly
Look, again, I always love the sort of totally mad in the street version of these things because then I feel like I’ve got it. Yeah, of course. So what we have here is we’ve always looked at the other, the fermenting, if you like, process has been the backup supply when you haven’t got enough energy. There’s not enough oxygen, so you’ve got to get a bit more energy from somewhere. You’re going to dive. You don’t run a bit faster, whatever it is, and in it kicks. It works. Now, you’re saying that there actually are other reasons to use that system, not just as a backup, but in order to supply a different result, not to give more energy, but actually because you need to build something in the body.

Robin Daly
And of course, there’s something that bodies need to do at various times, and it’s obviously a normal process that we need, like when we’re born, we’re going to grow. There’s obviously, it is appropriate at different times, but the time we don’t like it is when it’s cancer, and so the time it seems to have happened out of order, if you like, where it’s not appropriate in some way.

Dawn Waldron
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s actually, you’ve hit upon a thought that is, I’m finding no answers to what I’ve been reading yet, but the thought that’s going round in my head is therefore, if we can say that to some extent, answer is more likely to happen in what I’ve called the busy cells, which are using the aerobic form and pumping out the 36 levels of ATP. And of course, we do know that cancer cells become more stem-like as they evolve and as they become more aggressive. And then we understand that even what we call healthy stem cells use this anaerobic glycolysis. We start to see that, as I see it, we’re no longer looking at this idea of a damaged cell. If you see the mechanism of the Krebs cycle as something that can spin forwards or it can spin backwards, then in my mind, what we’re saying is that cancer cells are using the same gym, they’re just using it the other way round.

Robin Daly
I think it’s very interesting that, because as you say, it does completely change the picture of what’s going on, just like, but it’s not that there’s a process happening which isn’t inherently there, one that we already have. It’s just that it’s happening at the wrong time, or inappropriately. The other thing that it puts me in mind, as I’ve been saying for years, is that the picture of cancer that was always painted and made it such a big, boogey, bad thing to have was the fact that it worked. It was like a graph that just started off very gently and then it just went berserk off the top. That was one-way street, it wasn’t going anywhere else, it was only going to go to exponential growth and kill you. But actually, the experiences, particularly amongst the integrated community, is that cancer is a thing that goes up and down, it can lay quiet for long times, it can decide to come back again a bit, and then we have to change strategy, and it goes down again.

Robin Daly
There are people that have been doing that for decades and know how to manage it. And therefore, something is changing the process of cancer so that it’s no longer causing trouble. So very interesting.

Dawn Waldron
And as we get these insights, we perhaps get closer to being able to understand what that can be. I think it’s, for me, and I know for a lot of others, it would be helpful just to be able to take some of the fear out of the process, of course, and this idea of understanding that cancer cells, they’ve got stuck in the wrong program. Another very powerful thought that Nick Lane shares in his book, in fact, he calls it a pregnant thought, is this idea that all biochemistry is finally balanced. So a lot of biochemical reactions are reversible. They can go one way or the other according to the concentration of co-factors and enzymes and substrates and all that sort of thing in the cell. And that’s really important here. So, for example, one of the things that propels the Krebs chemical forward is a molecule called NADH, which is turned into NAD plus and then turned back into NADH in the process of releasing protons to make energy.

Dawn Waldron
And these chemical reactions, they go down a gradient. So if you’ve got a lot of NADH, there will be a tendency to move towards NAD plus in whatever compartment of the cell you’re in. Likewise, so if energy stops moving forward, then the NADH is not going to be transformed either. And so you get this build up, you get a build up of NADH or some other molecule and the cell ends up in stasis. It can no longer move to the point that you might get to a tipping point and the cell starts to move around the other way. The cell says, okay, we’ve got to change the equilibrium here somehow. And there are some key molecules in the Krebs cycle like succinate and fumarate, which actually, if we get too many of those molecules, they switch on growth genes and then we get growth, we get inflammation, we get angiogenesis, you know, the growth of blood vessels.

Dawn Waldron
And so we get a lot of the formats of cancer forming and that’s happening because we’re not pushing energy properly through the cycle. And that might be because we’ve eaten a big dinner and then we haven’t moved if you like. And that sounds terribly alarming. Obviously that sounds like, well, and it also sounds a little unrealistic because you then think, well, how come we aren’t all, you know, riddled with cancer if that’s the case. And whenever you highlight these mechanisms like this, you’re not saying, oh, it’s inevitable this will happen, you know, after your Christmas dinner. But what we’re saying is we understand that there is a tipping point to cells where they might move away from making energy towards making growth.

Dawn Waldron
And just the fact that we understand that now and that we understand that tipping point has got to be extremely powerful. I mean, this is relatively new. This is sort of, I think, sort of 2020 and beyond this science where we’re starting to see, really to understand what’s happening here. And you mentioned coupling in the summary.

Dawn Waldron
The reason uncoupling works, it’s a bit like the whistle on a steam engine, it lets all that charge out, it lets the potential through, and so it allows forward motion through the energy passages again, which is what we need. We either need to move, we need uncoupling, we need to not eat too much. The reason that things like fasting and calorie restriction and exercise and ketone production are so helpful in this regard is that they actually keep us in this non-growth state, they keep us in this catabolic state. It’s at a slightly higher level than we’re talking about here at the genetic level of metabolism, but this all goes hand in hand. If we’re talking about we want to promote AMPK, we want to reduce the pressure of mTOR, which is a growth program, this is the same thing, keeping your mitochondria, keeping the energy flowing through your mitochondria, is going towards energy and away from growth.

Robin Daly
Okay, now, and to sort of read something you wrote in your blog, you wrote the steps are part of a predictable, unwavering, ancient metabolic process rather than the endlessly moving targets of randomly mutating genes. Now that’s another important element in the story of what cancer is. The randomly mutating genes that you’re shooting at while they move around and all the rest of it, you need a new kind of weapon to get them. This is a nightmare, basically, and this is what most people think they’re dealing with at the moment, which is not much better than the last picture they were given. It’s just about as likely to succeed. But you’re pointing out that actually if what you’re saying is true, that we got this now known, predictable process going on where the energy system of the cell can either move towards producing energy or it can move the other way and produce growth.

Robin Daly
And that’s a simple either or equation. And that leads us to say, well, okay, if that’s true, then what we need to do is we need to encourage our energy cycle to move from the growth to the energy production. And some of the things we can do, you’ve already referred to them a bit, are very practical and down to it. So maybe we should just use the last part of the program to just go into what the conclusions might be from what you’re looking at as to what we should do about it in order to promote the cancer process being dulled down.

Dawn Waldron
Yes, that’s a great idea actually, because going from a sort of almost impossibly complex to the sort of practical every day, which is so important. What we’re talking about is metabolic support, but very specific metabolic support. We’ve been focusing on metabolism for a long time, there’s been an awful lot of focus on should we be eating carbs, should we be eating fat, should we be eating something else, you know. And while that’s important, and ketones are actually still important here, it’s a bigger picture than this. Once we start to understand, it’s about the throughput of energy and the healthy throughput of energy. We can do more, we can still look up fuel, but we can do more. The first thing we need to do is to moderate fueling, and that’s really boring.

Dawn Waldron
In many ways, the public health advice of eat less and move more, it’s on the money, but it doesn’t take into account personalization. It doesn’t take into account the fact that for some people that doesn’t work, and that some people need a bit more help, people have different needs and different requirements. But how do you moderate fueling? Well, it’s not only not eating, but fasting is an important part of that. There’s very clear data that fasting can help to mend your mitochondria, it can help to improve your microbiome, it can help to improve the quality of your gut wall, it puts you into this much-treasured AMPK mode, so the non-growth mode. So there’s lots of evidence for fasting, and indeed, obviously, it’s an ancient healing tradition. So we moderate fuel in that way. We moderate fuel by eating unrefined foods, so whole foods generally, grains are a slightly different issue because grains, particularly gluten grains, tend to be a bit tricky for the gut wall, so I’m going to leave those aside.

Dawn Waldron
But aside from grains, eating whole food that hasn’t been finely processed as well, moodies are not necessarily the best delivery system for food because of the micro-particles that mean all the energy hits in one go, so meals like your granny used to eat are very sensible and chewing fairly well, but a proper plate with, I don’t know, fish and broccoli and some sweet potatoes, that sort of thing, will hit your cell membranes and your mitochondria in a steady stream, and that’s also what our mitochondria need. That’s another part of moderation. Cannery restriction, I’m going to cover this in a future blog. We really struggle with this idea of what that means and what cannery restriction means for different people. Fasting helps, but eating slightly less than we need is a really good way of not overwhelming the mitochondria.

Dawn Waldron
Perhaps that’s obvious. We also need to make sure we’ve got enough oxygen on board because oxygen is needed to get the glucose into the cell for burning, so when we don’t have enough oxygen, that’s a problem. So that’s another reason why exercise is really important, and breath work is so important now, especially when we sit a lot and we don’t use our lungs. Thingings great, lungs better clarinet, all sorts of things we can do to actually increase our oxygenation. Yoga’s fantastic. So that’s moderating the fuel in, and then things like berberine, which is a very popular anti-cancer supplement, can be helpful here to help with blood sugar management. Nutrigenomics, looking at your SNPs, can help you to understand whether you’re better at handling sugars or fats, so that whether you’re well set up for managing this fuel supply into your body. Okay, so there’s lots we can do there.

Robin Daly
Just to be clear, if people don’t know, that’s a gene testing and your snips, just to explain what snips are without very many long words.

Dawn Waldron
Okay. So they are, well, I have to use two, but they’re single nucleotide polymorphisms, which to you and me are gene variations. Robin, we’ve both got the same genes, apart from a bit of X, Y chromosome stuff, but we will have different variants in those genes. That means that you might need a bit more vodic acid than I do or something like that. That’s what a single nucleotide polymorphism is. And that’s why we call it a SNP, because I can’t say it on the radio. So that’s what that is. And you can support yourself that way by understanding your SNPs, particularly if you’re doing everything you can and you’re not getting the health results you think you should be getting. That can be a very fruitful thing to look at.

Dawn Waldron
we’re doing that. We’re moderating energy and we’re boosting energy out. Though obviously, we’re exercising, we’re moving, we’re maintaining our muscle mass. We can do things like hot-cold exposure, the Wim Hof method, all that sort of thing, cold showers, all those things that actually, a lot of them will actually be stimulating the thermogenic uncoupling in many ways. But we can gradually, just building muscle mass will build mitochondria, which means that we use more energy. So though there’s a lot we can do to boost energy out and moving and taking exercise is the most important of those. In the middle there, we’ve got this idea of uncoupling whereby should you have accidentally eaten too much dinner, we’ve got this uncoupling mechanism that will reduce some of the pressure, take the steam engine valve if you like.

Dawn Waldron
And this is where, what I’ve been writing about a lot recently, we need the signals from the microbiome, we need ketones, we need the polyphenols, and the omega-3 fatty acids are helpful, as is all this hot-cold exposure and that sort of thing, that can all help to support thermogenic uncoupling. So you’ve got three good things to focus on there to understand your energy. One good thing to focus on is not necessarily how heavy you are today, but trying not to be heavier tomorrow. So this idea of trying to maintain a stable weight and not let your weight go up year on year as you age is quite a good… We’re all so focused on trying to be smaller, smaller, smaller. But in actual fact, if that’s a tricky thing for you, just try not to get bigger, because that’s a sign that you’re perhaps taking on board too much energy.

Robin Daly
Okay, well, very interesting. So I’m just, I’m thinking about everything you’ve been talking about. It’s good theory, okay? Sounds good, makes sense. And you’ve taken a lot of very careful research of other people, brought it all together to focus on this idea. And then you’ve got your audience of people with cancer who are thinking, right, well, and of course, with any theory, you have to remember this theory and therefore, you know, if you’re going to put a lot of weight in it, it’ll have to be because you’ve got any other options probably. But you’re going to look at, well, what are the risks associated with trying this out? And in the case of yours that you’re putting forward at the moment, I can’t see many risks because you’re actually not, you’re not trying to persuade anybody to do anything wildly outside of what they might have already sort of doing. You’re really, in a way, just focusing some of those behaviors by having a different understanding of it.

Dawn Waldron
I think that is exactly right. I think it is trying to boost understanding and therefore buy-in, I suppose. I think that’s really important for all of us. We all get those things, why the hell am I not eating ice cream when everybody else is? And I think, yes, I think that can really help with that. I think perhaps one takeaway of this though is to just circle back. Remember I said earlier on that these biochemistry is finely balanced. So, and we need this, I mentioned NADH which gets turned into NAD plus in the electron transport chain and vice versa in Krebs cycle. And there is a current trend because of the longevity and anti-aging literature for people to supplement NAD plus as a nutrient directly. It derives from vitamin B3, but when you supplement it as NAD plus, you are supplementing it in its active transformed state.

Dawn Waldron
Once we understand that that could actually take the balance in the cell, then I think that’s a really good, and I’m going to be writing about this actually possibly next week, if anybody’s worried about this now and thinking, oh my goodness, but I am going to be writing about this. But what I want to emphasize is this idea that we can get these trendy supplements and it can be like, oh, this is great, it’s anti-aging, I’m going to take this now. And do we need to understand that what we were saying earlier, biochemistry is finally balanced. So you need to be careful what you take, you need to get good advice, not everybody understands cancer and if in doubt, stick with whole food and time on a tradition. I would say, which is a bit boring of me to say that.

Robin Daly
the safe option, you’re absolutely right. Yeah. You don’t go wrong with food. Yes. Well, guess what? We’re running out of time. That’s two shows we’ve done. Well, look, a great little journey we’ve been on. Very interesting. I’m sure it’s going to stir up lots of further debate and maybe some more realisation. So, it’s extremely valuable that people like you are actually putting all this attention on this because, of course, we need some fresh thinking, don’t we? We all know that. I mean, too many people are spending too much money and time on this without getting anywhere. So, we need some out-of-the-box thinking quickly.

Dawn Waldron
Yes, and I think just wrapping up, you know, this is just me sitting here pulling together some ideas of some things I’ve read, and if only we had more joined up thinking, I’m sure we’d get a lot further, a lot faster.

Robin Daly
Well, I think things are speeding up, so anyway, it’s been a pleasure, thank you very much.

Dawn Waldron
Thank you, Robin. Lovely to speak to you again. Take care.

Robin Daly
Well, as they say, you heard it first on the Yes to Life show. Very fresh thinking, absolutely hot on the press from Dawn Waldron there. Time will tell what contribution this turns out to be, but my feeling is that it can’t help but be a contribution in some way, and the reason I think that is because for me, it ticks some of the common sense boxes in a way that many other ideas don’t. It’s almost time for the first of this year’s two yes to life conferences pushing the boundaries, which is the online one on the 22nd of June. The program for this and for our in-person conference in London on September the 28th has been developed with Patricia Peat of Cancer Options, and as you would expect, we have an awesome lineup of experience and knowledge in the form of our guest speakers.

Robin Daly
The legendary Dr. Nasha Winters, Michael Lerner, one of the fathers of integrative oncology, Dr. Olivia Lesslar, expert in the burgeoning field of psychoneuroimmunology, naturopathic oncologist Dr. Heidi Kussman, expert in drug repurposing, Dr. Michael Castro, and last but certainly not least, Dr. Sean Devlin, highly experienced in cancer support and renowned for his work with cannabinoid medicines. The event is extremely excessively priced and so definitely not to be missed, and if you’re within striking distance of London, you can pick up a bargain by booking both conferences at once. Find out more and book your place at YesToLifeAnnualConference.org. Many thanks for listening today. I’ll be delighted if you join me again next week for another Yes To Life show here on UK Health Radio. Goodbye.