Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcript has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hi and welcome to the Yes to Life show on UK Health Radio. My name is Robin Daly, host of the show and founder of the UK charity Yes to Life, a cancer charity that focuses on bringing the benefits of integrative medicine to the UK to start to bring us in line with many other countries which have already adopted a model of cancer care that incorporates support for mind, body and spirit and that meets far more of the many needs of those with cancer.

Robin Daly
I guess this week is someone who, when confronted by a cancer diagnosis, decided to share her ongoing experience with the world through the popular Talking with Cancer podcast. Katie Phillips has achieved a remarkable remission through a judicious combination of some of the latest cancer drugs and an open-minded interest in the less tangible factors that can contribute in a multitude of ways.

Katie Phillips
Hi Robin, thanks so much for having me.

Robin Daly
Pleasure, pleasure. So, we’re on fairly familiar territory for you today in that you and a friend, Claire, are the subject of the ongoing weekly Talking with Cancer podcast series, in which you represent the 50% of us who get cancer, and your friend Claire, the 50% who don’t, I believe that your cancer is described as a rare and complicated one, which doesn’t sound very nice.

Robin Daly
But anyway, we’ll hear more about that. So before we get into talking about your backstory, maybe you can just tell us about Talking with Cancer, how it got started, what your aim was for the series.

Katie Phillips
Yeah, definitely. So it started over two years ago, pretty much coincided with my diagnosis. What I felt at that time was that I was inundated with messages of love and concern that it was very overwhelming.

Katie Phillips
And so I thought what would be great is if I could just send one response to all the messages. And I asked my friend Claire who, you know, we’re old friends, but she had a journalistic background, I thought she’d be a great person to sit down and talk to with over Zoom, which we did, and we recorded the conversation.

Katie Phillips
And then I had a link. So I would send that link out to anyone that was asking me how I was doing. And it got a really great response. And we just kept doing that basically every week. And then after a couple of months, I said to her, what if we actually launch this as a podcast?

Katie Phillips
You know, we’ve got all these recordings, what do you think? And she was totally up for it. So we did that. And so the first series of the podcast was basically a week by week, blow by blow account, really, what I was going through right from that point of diagnosis with all the testing that happens around that time, straight into treatment, it followed everything that I was going through.

Katie Phillips
And yeah, every week, Claire and I would talk about it. That then evolved. So the podcast, then in the second series, it moved into more interviews. So either she would interview someone or I would interview someone, and then we’d sort of discuss that together.

Katie Phillips
And so we did two series together. And then it moved into me on my own. I think, you know, sort of Claire had a busy life and job. And as you know, doing a podcast is quite takes up quite a lot. So I said, look, I’m going to try this on my own.

Katie Phillips
I’m not sure how it’s going to go, but I’m going to try it. And actually, it was in with different, but it was great. I used to just sit down in front of the microphone and talk about what I was going through.

Katie Phillips
And then I would also interview a guest. And those guests would be really varied. So I’ve interviewed my oncologist, I’ve interviewed my cardiologist, I’ve interviewed my yoga teacher, a dietitian, professors from the Institute of Cancer Research, all sorts of different guests.

Katie Phillips
And in total, I’ve recorded about 60 or 70 episodes.

Robin Daly
impressive. Very good. A lot, don’t say the course of it, as they start off very keen at the beginning and fizzle out after three months. But anyway, yeah, good on you. But I’m just thinking how useful that must have been to a lot of people because, you know, as is legendary, getting cancer is like landing on another planet.

Robin Daly
There’s so many unknowns. It’s so unfamiliar, the territory you’re in, that it’s scary stuff. So to have somebody who’s been there telling you about it live, if you like, from this planet cancer, it must have been helpful to a lot of people, I imagine.

Katie Phillips
I have had amazing response and it’s absolutely meant the world. It’s made it so worthwhile. It’s sort of a lot of the reason why I’ve continued. I think there’s been two reasons really for that podcast.

Katie Phillips
It’s been very cathartic for me. Can share my story. I wasn’t a public person at all. I didn’t put my personal life on social media. I really wasn’t one of those people that was telling everyone what I was up to all the time at all, but something very visceral in me said, I need to talk about this.

Katie Phillips
I need to share my story. So when I started to get listeners outside of my friends and family, um, you know, complete strangers that we either going through something similar or not that similar, but cancer is, you know, very broad.

Katie Phillips
You don’t have to have the same type of cancer to relate to other people to realize, or people who had someone in their family going through it. And, you know, not so different things helped people. I got responses about, you know, it’s really helped me your self advocacy because I’ve realized I need to stand up to myself more and understand my own health better.

Katie Phillips
Other people have said, you know, um, like Maggie’s center is one of the centers I talk about a lot, um, he’d be discovered Maggie’s through my podcast. People have discovered all different ways to cope with surgery, all sorts of things, the emotional aspect, the anxiety, just, just the general, like day-to-day living with cancer and talking with cancer.

Katie Phillips
Um, I think that’s the main thing is sort of being able to talk about it. Some people have written to me to say, I haven’t told anyone about this. I haven’t told people at work. I haven’t told my close friends and like hearing you, it’s sort of helped me to feel less ashamed.

Katie Phillips
That’s the other interesting thing with cancer is a lot of shame around it.

Robin Daly
I know, it’s still, yeah, I mean, of course, there used to be a massive amount in the past, but it’s certainly still there in spades, though, for a lot of people. Yeah, it’s curious stuff, isn’t it? But yes, we help quite a lot of people to share their stories for fundraising reasons, yes, life.

Robin Daly
And unless they happen to be the age where they live their life on the internet, anyway, everything they do is splurged out, in which case it makes no difference. It’s just another thing to do. But for most people, it’s like, you know, they don’t really want to be that public about their situation.

Robin Daly
But they, like you, are always absolutely shocked and surprised by what amazing thing it is to go that public and how much good will and support comes from a huge number of people in the most unexpected way.

Robin Daly
So it’s a actually, I think what people need to get through something like cancer is to feel that level of support because it’s a horrible journey, you know, everything isolates.

Katie Phillips
Yeah. And I think, you know, social media is another platform to build that community, to share that voice and to share those experiences. And actually, you know, funnily enough, I did a whole podcast about the pros and cons of the cancer community on social media.

Katie Phillips
It can be a real struggle because people who, you know, from a distance, you know, for a screen, suffering, struggling, of course, a lot of those people die, you know, that’s a very hard thing to live through.

Katie Phillips
However distant you are from that person, there’s still something you’re relating to. So that can be very, very hard. But at the same time, you can really feel part of a community and feel incredibly supportive of each other, which is amazing, actually.

Robin Daly
Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Yeah, one of the big pluses of the internet is really bad things, but that’s a plus for sure. So I’m imagining, because you were talking with a friend there, that you were also able to cross the threshold to speak about many things that would not be spoken about, kind of considered taboos, really, in the whole world of cancer.

Katie Phillips
other people would say, gosh, it’s like, it’s like eavesdropping into a conversation with two friends. I think at the beginning it definitely was. I think that’s the other thing, you know, what I recall is how vulnerable you are at the beginning.

Katie Phillips
And if you feel safe with someone, which I very much do with Claire, then for me anyway, I would sort of let that guard down even more. So I probably revealed a lot, you know, a lot about the journey building up to that point, which, you know, my husband and I were going, we were on an IVF journey prior to my diagnosis.

Katie Phillips
That’s something I never shared. Like I said, I never talked about that publicly at all. And suddenly that was sort of out there, you know, the sort of side effects that you get with treatment, you know, how that can affect your balance or your flatulence, you know, let’s talk about that stuff.

Robin Daly
Well, you know, yeah, people need to know this stuff, don’t they? And what to do about it? Yeah, no, it’s really good to talk about it, for sure. And that’s, I’d say it’s an opportunity in a way to be speaking in such an intimate way to somebody.

Robin Daly
And just the curious thing of a few thousand people listening, you know, but anyway, seems to work.

Katie Phillips
like you and I are, so you know, I’d be sitting right here.

Katie Phillips
and she’d be in her home. So again, you’ve got this sort of sense, this safe sense that it’s just you two at home.

Robin Daly
Yeah, exactly. That’s good. Anyway, so you mentioned you’ve got guests coming on increasingly onto the podcast. What are you looking for when you go and search for guests to speak to?

Katie Phillips
Do you know what I’ve realized? It was quite subconscious, to be honest. Very often it was guests that were relevant to me that were in my life in some way. So, you know, when I was exploring all different things around healing and around an integrative approach, I came across a woman called Anna Parkinson.

Katie Phillips
She’d written a book called, Change Your Mind, Heal Your Body. And I was interested in her story. She found healing through sort of meditation and she healed a tumor that was in the back of her head that was untreatable.

Katie Phillips
And over the course of seven years, it completely disappeared. So I found her story fascinating and that did a cause with her. And then I invited her to come on the podcast. So that’s an example of, you know, someone that I had the personal experience of.

Katie Phillips
I got a great relationship with the Institute of Cancer Research and I would sort of, you know, say to them, look, this is my situation and my story. Like, you tell me who you’re working with, who you’re putting forward at the moment.

Katie Phillips
And so we would kind of work together in terms of finding guests that way. I asked my cardiologist because the treatment I was taking can affect the heart. And he almost really founded cardiomycology as it’s become known now that the heart can get affected from all sorts of different paths.

Katie Phillips
If it wasn’t known, I don’t know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. So I thought that was really fascinating to talk to him. So sometimes guests will come to me, but I feel like on the whole, I’m asking people that I feel I have some sort of interest or personal connection with.

Katie Phillips
And I like it to be varied. I think it’s, for me, it’s important that I show all different sides to the cancer world. I am pro-treatment and I’m pro-medicine, but I also really believe in integrated health and owning your own health and managing your own health and working collaboratively with your healthcare team.

Katie Phillips
So I think that probably comes across as well in terms of the guests and the people I’ve spoken to. I’ve mentioned Maggie’s. I’ve spoken to Dame Laureline, who founded Maggie’s 25 years ago. So yeah, a really nice mix of people.

Katie Phillips
I’ve spoken to a death doula. That was interesting, because I was through a period where death was very prominent subject in my journey. And I was interested in exploring death doulas and end of life.

Katie Phillips
And I also spoke to a woman who specialized in grief and loss. She’s written a book called Modern Loss, Rebecca Soffer, her name is. And she’s got an interesting, very interesting approach to how we as society and culturally sort of deal with death and talk about death or death.

Robin Daly
And don’t deal with it yes as much as possible and we great those sound like really interesting topics yeah kind of stuff I love. So one of the topics that you say you cover is how cancer changes your outlook on the world that’s something I like to talk about often on this show as it’s kind of it’s the ray of sunshine on the otherwise bleak landscape of cancer and it’s the one thing that makes lots of people I talk to and probably that you talk to actually say that cancer is the best thing that ever happened to them.

Robin Daly
Do you want to share a little bit of what cancer has taught you?

Katie Phillips
Mmm, so much. Oh my God. And it makes me quite emotional when I think about it, because at the beginning, when you get a diagnosis, all you want is your old self and your old life. You just mourn for it desperately.

Katie Phillips
You just imagine turning back time and that this never happened. And then I didn’t think I was going to cry. And then, you know, you go on this journey and the last thing I’d want is to be my old self.

Katie Phillips
Right. Because, you know, I think that you just learn so much about what’s important, what you value. And that’s not only about well-being. I’ve got a bit of a problem with, you know, if you don’t have your health, you don’t have anything.

Katie Phillips
I’ve got a bit of a problem with that because I actually would say to people, I’ve got everything. I don’t have my health right now, but I’ve got everything, you know. And so I think there’s a misconception around that.

Katie Phillips
And I think it sounds very cliche to say, but, you know, when you can’t get out of bed or you feel depressed because of your treatment or you feel nauseous and you lose your appetite, all of those things, you know, there’s such profound ways of experiencing life differently.

Katie Phillips
And when you get those things back and suddenly you can get out of bed and you feel better and you can walk, it’s like, wow, you know, I just, this feels amazing and I’m just going to enjoy it and relish it.

Katie Phillips
Even if it’s raining, I’m going to go out for a walk. It doesn’t matter. You know, so I think it, again, it’s really hard not to sound cliche. I was thinking earlier, it’s that thing, isn’t it? What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

Katie Phillips
That sort of sums it up for me. And, you know, that’s not to dismiss people that are terminal with cancer or, you know, die with cancer because that was almost my outcome. And to be honest, Robin, we don’t know what the future holds for me.

Katie Phillips
I mean, we don’t know what it holds for anyone, do we? But, you know, I have been given the all clear for what was a very, very morbid place, but we’ve got no idea, you know, what’s to come.

Robin Daly
No, precisely. It’s just fascinating, isn’t it, how embracing uncertainty in the way that you have actually brings our attention and focus into a completely different place to where it usually is and we gain this enormous appreciation of life that wasn’t really accessible to us or if it was we didn’t know how to access it before.

Robin Daly
So without the kind of crushing, life-stopping blow of something like cancer, it’s very hard for people to gain access to that view of life, just to actually see the beauty that’s there in front of them all the time.

Robin Daly
It’s not that life has changed, it hasn’t, it’s just the same as it was before you got cancer, but it’s you who’ve been woken up by cancer and that’s, as I say, that’s kind of the silver lining if you like this horrible thing that’s called cancer is that it has the power to wake people up.

Katie Phillips
Yeah, I kept on one of the conversations I had with Claire and locked at the beginning was, you know, I hear people talk about the meaning of cancer and the gift of cancer. And I would say to her, I don’t know what it is, I’m trying to find it.

Katie Phillips
And then I got to a point where I realized it was about eight months in, I think, that it’s not going to land in my lap like one package, you know what I mean? All wrapped up nicely in a bow. Like those meanings are happening all the time, that kind of shedding of skin, transition periods, learning about myself.

Katie Phillips
And I think, you know, I learned that I could actually cope with uncertainty. I always thought I was a control freak. And actually what I realized is like step by step, day by day, like I’ve got the tools and the coping mechanisms to deal with this.

Katie Phillips
And also to look at, like to shine a light of what what I can take from this is a positive. And in my case, it was all the unknowns that my doctors were telling me, everything was unknown with me. And I thought, well, that’s great.

Katie Phillips
Because they don’t know I’m not statistic are no other. So what do they know?

Robin Daly
Yeah, set your own statistics. Absolutely great. It’s incredible, though, isn’t it? Because this thing of embracing uncertainty, in a way, it allows life to be as it is and us to appreciate it. We don’t see ourselves as in the wrong place at the wrong time, not quite doing it all the time, like we normally do.

Robin Daly
Suddenly, we say, yeah, we’re in the right place at the right time, this is it. And we’re actually present with our own life. And of course, it has been amazing, you know, funnily enough, as it always was.

Robin Daly
But we were completely wrapped up in trying to keep it safe or under control or something, you know, to actually get a handle on it all somehow and make it something we could steer.

Katie Phillips
I think how you frame things changes massively. So for me, it was, I was in my early forties. I really started planning for a family, running my own business, always looking ahead, always like the next thing sort of box ticking, you know, and, um, very busy, very social, and then you just have to stop, you have to stop.

Katie Phillips
if I have a couple of things that I’m doing a day, that is plenty enough for me. And the idea of success has changed so much. You know, it’s not about the next client or the biggest fee. It’s, in my case, it’s a podcast that doesn’t pay me that I actually pay to make.

Katie Phillips
But the success is in the value that brings to other people. And as I’ve already said, like how I find it very therapeutic for me that, and also that I have this record, you know, that’s what, that kind of makes it successful for me as well, that I’ve got, I’ve got a record of everything that I’ve experienced and been through.

Katie Phillips
So yeah, everything, your whole, your whole perspective and your whole outlook changes. And I think it, but it’s slow. It’s a very gradual, the very gradual sort of prioritization. What was I prioritizing before that, you know, what was it and why was it that doesn’t work for me now?

Katie Phillips
It’s just not, never win again, you know? Right.

Robin Daly
Anyway, yeah, a relief in many ways. It was on Radio 4 News today, there was a guy talking about teaching people how to be happy and they said, yeah, it is teachable and he was asked about, well, what’s it all about happiness?

Robin Daly
He said, well, basically, it’s sort of opposite of what we’re told. It’s all about giving, helping others, that’s where happiness actually lies. And I thought, well, that’s it, you got it there, mate.

Robin Daly
And good to have it on the news.

Katie Phillips
But also, what is this strive for happiness? I mean, you know, we think it’s a revelation when we say life is hard. Like, you know, that’s not some profound thing to discover. Like, of course, life is full of good and bad and happiness and difficult times.

Katie Phillips
Like, that just is living. So for me, it’s more about acceptance. It’s not about trying to find happiness everywhere, every day, all the time. That’s just not realistic, you know, because feeling sad or down or, you know, isn’t it is OK as well, like you’ve got to have space and room for those emotions as well, I think.

Katie Phillips
Oh, it’s great, you know, for people to talk about happiness and just strive for something like that. I also I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that.

Robin Daly
Well, I think he was talking about they actually had a discussion about what they were referring to those happiness. And of course, it means different things in different situations or to different people.

Robin Daly
And he was, when he was talking about the giving by the bit of actually looking outside yourself, he was talking about more in the sort of deeper contentment, if you like, not the superficial, I’m having fun.

Robin Daly
So, and I thought, well, right on. I agree with that, that actually, life is about not just trying to deal with the difficulties of life by accruing as many things as you can and getting as many good feelings as you can.

Robin Daly
It’s a kind of saving scheme that doesn’t work. So, yeah. So look, back to the practicalities now, I wonder if you could tell us a bit about your backstory and probably need to be the short version at this point, about your diagnosis, your treatment and where it brought you to today.

Katie Phillips
So I’ve sort of mentioned I was 43 at the time of diagnosis. I had a rare I have a rare form of thyroid cancer It’s called club now There’s not a lot about it. There’s not a lot of us out there never have been never will be I’ve been treated at the Royal Mars done in London.

Katie Phillips
They’re an amazing tool I’ve had an incredible experience with them and I The treatment pathway was always targeted therapy for me or TK eyes And that is given to me in a pill form. I take that every night at home.

Katie Phillips
I had Three different ones. I’m on my third TK eye The first one was on trestin if it worked for a period enough to shrink The cancer that I had at the point of diagnosis. I had metastatic. So I had it in my lumb I had it traveling through my lymph node pathway blocking my airways Starting to show up around the abdomen.

Katie Phillips
So it really was everywhere and when I had my surgery Three or four months after my diagnosis when I’ve been on the treatment I had a nine-hour full neck dissection surgery. They removed a hundred lymph nodes for my neck So I mean I really had a lot They tried other treatments radioactive ID, which is a very common treatment Halfway for thyroid cancer patient, but that didn’t work for me And after about eight months on me on trestin if that stopped working They showed scan showed some progression and I went on to a second TK I would lend that to me commonly given to thyroid cancer patient Worked for about six months.

Katie Phillips
That was probably the worst drug that I took terrible side effects with that had a little bit of radiotherapy during that time and Then some progression showed again after six months and I got cut on cabes actinib After two months on cabes antinib Alongside other things that I was doing I got my first clear scan so I had a scan that showed no sign of disease after two months, which was just I mean very unexpected and Incredible I had another scan five months after that which showed the same results But I remain on treatment so I’m in this funny sort of dichotomy I am living with cancer,

Katie Phillips
but I’m cancer free and that’s because I have a Ross one gene It’s a Ross one fusion that shows up with the hob now again. Very unusual Ross ones often seen in non-small-cell lung cancer It’s never seen thyroid cancer.

Katie Phillips
So I was actually being treated by a bit the lung team and the thyroid head to neck team But yeah cabes antinib I mean Wow, and now I’m on sort of the lowest dose I’ve gone down from a 60 to a 20 milligram dose I take every evening at home.

Katie Phillips
So every month I go and I get checked. I get my bloods done I see my oncologist and I come home with another bottle of pills So that is I cut it was much of a nutshell I can give you

Robin Daly
Yeah, that’s great. But what you’re talking there about the fact that you, in parallel, you’re on a learning journey, I think, learning about health and well-being for yourself, and what was important, and maybe what has contributed to your cancer in the first place, and you needed to do something about…

Robin Daly
So do you want to address that a bit, just talk about the learning journey you’ve been on?

Katie Phillips
Yeah, well, it’s interesting. I would say that I was always very conscious. I was with a well person, to be honest, you know, I’d always practiced yoga for over 25 years. I was always very interested in nutrition.

Katie Phillips
When I was on my fertility journey, I was seeing a nutritionist and taking supplements. So that was definitely in my life. That was also, I guess, what made it even more shocking that I got a cancer diagnosis.

Katie Phillips
Right. We think we’re on it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Young, healthy, no medical conditions didn’t make any difference for me. So, and also, you know, talking about my wellbeing, you know, I was in therapy.

Katie Phillips
So I wasn’t, it wasn’t like, you know, I was one version. Oh my God, I’ve suddenly become a completely different version in terms of lifestyle choices and my kind of approach. But what I did find really interesting with the stories around radical remission and the stories around the power of the mind and placebo and all this stuff that we know, which is like the inexplainable, you know, how does a body cure itself,

Katie Phillips
heal itself? And all at the time, I’m understanding how amazing the body is. And I think that was always for me at the root of my healing. I was never, I never was angry with the cancer. I never owned the cancer.

Katie Phillips
I never called it my cancer. I still don’t. I accepted it was in my body, but I kind of, I found these meditations and things were actually much more about acknowledging it, loving it and thanking it.

Katie Phillips
Cause I didn’t want to be aggressive towards it. You know, I felt like it was aggressive enough. So there was something in that, there was something in my mindset of like how I was feeling in relation to the cancer.

Katie Phillips
And then there was something in the narrative I was getting from the doctors. They always told me you have an incurable but treatable cancer. And I started to feel like that is their narrative. That doesn’t have to be my narrative.

Robin Daly
Interesting.

Katie Phillips
Yeah, and I I realized now like I often didn’t read the letters that they would follow up an appointment with and Now I realized I didn’t want to penetrate my thoughts with their words No, because the language is so incredibly powerful when you start to read the letters It makes it very very scary because they’re in black and white in very medical terms is you and it doesn’t really feel like you so it’s right the very funny juxtaposition And I just never really It engaged in in that kind of black-and-white terminology,

Katie Phillips
right? And then with these stories of radical remission and integrative care and I came across Since this is clinic Dr. Lina full of shave all of you. I’ve been to I interviewed as well I just just started to just think more broadly really with my with my lifestyle choices and I think what’s difficult is that you know when you really don’t feel well and people are telling you do yoga do exercise Get out,

Katie Phillips
you know, it’s really good for you. It’s quite hard because doing those things agreed It’s it’s really hard to do physically and you can’t do that But bit by bit I was doing more more and more physical exercise again, like I used to do pre-diagnosis and Just Understanding what these radical remission factors were these studies about people old similar to me, you know, terminally ill with cancer chronically ill and yet they turn things around and there’s sort of common factors with these people so really it was about looking at Some of those and I did what I think a lot of people in my position would do you’re looking for hope everywhere So I threw everything at it.

Katie Phillips
It was a bit scatter gun at first

Robin Daly
Right. You’ve got to start somewhere.

Katie Phillips
I saw a sound healer and I saw a breath work specialist and I did this chakra healing course and I did a lot of it and then I went down the road with, okay, well, what’s sticking here for me? What feels like it’s really working?

Katie Phillips
Where do I feel a connection with these practitioners? I think that’s really important as well. And I just followed that path really.

Robin Daly
your intuition. One of the factors, of course, in Kelly Teller’s work. Excellent. It’s interesting, isn’t it? I mean, I completely appreciate what you’re saying. You were interested and into looking at things like the radical remission project.

Robin Daly
Well, the kind of things that are in there, you know that they’re not on the radar of the oncologists who are pronouncing your chances on bits of paper. And so, therefore, it’s absolutely, if you set some store by the fact that you realize that you know that people can turn around completely incurable disease, in fact, by a whole set of random steps that they take and their own determination, then you know that actually,

Robin Daly
well, there’s limited thinking to believe that you’re completely cornered, that you don’t stand a chance. And that obviously, you do have a chance, it might be an immensely small one, but you’ve got one.

Robin Daly
So why not gamble on it? I mean, you know, there’s no reason to give up if you actually value your life and you want some more of it. There’s every reason to play for it, you know. So, yes, I think you’re totally pragmatic in your decisions to avoid what, as you said, is powerful language that tends to box you into a situation.

Katie Phillips
Yeah. And I also think, you know, I’m lucky that I have the disposition that I have, you know, that that is my natural sort of character and personality. And I think what is difficult for some people is that they’re sort of trying very hard to find this belief and this hope, but they just can’t feel it.

Katie Phillips
And, you know, it’s not it. And that is that is very difficult, challenging for some people because it’s not something you could bother.

Robin Daly
can’t cook it up, you’re right. I would connect it with the world to live, which is not very strong in some people. I wouldn’t say it’s something they can’t do anything about, because there will be a reason why they have that low world to live that they could look into, face into it, and find out why they value their life so little, because it’s unnatural to value your life so little in my book.

Robin Daly
There is nothing suppressing your desire to live, it will be strong.

Katie Phillips
Yeah, I think that’s definitely true. I think it’s, you know, what is this experience for you? Try to see it as an experience, how you going through that experience. And, you know, again, it’s not for me, it wasn’t about the fight, you know, the fight to nive, and I’ve got to get through this.

Katie Phillips
And it was, it was an innate, it was an innate belief and innate feeling. But yes, I had the tools already. And I think for people that don’t, you’ve got to start to really open up that toolbox, you know, and really rummage around in it, because you’re right, like there will be reasons why.

Katie Phillips
And it’s not to say, you know, this is why people get cancer, because, you know, there’s a reason. And I don’t believe that. But I think when you’re thrown at life, it’s about how you how you deal with it.

Katie Phillips
I mean, I remember saying to my husband, because he would say to me often early on, you know, I want you to be strong, I need like, he was projecting a lot. And, and I let him because I understood, you know, I totally understood.

Katie Phillips
But I remember saying to him at one point, I said to him, I haven’t said this yet. I need you to know, and I need to voice it. I want to live. I don’t want this to be the thing that kills me. I need to say that I need almost the universe to hear that, because I felt like I wasn’t actually verbalizing that.

Katie Phillips
Right. And, and he said, I know, I know. I said, I need to make that clear, like, I want, I want to get through this, and I want to be okay. What was interesting about that was that everything I was saying, and I would sometimes say to my oncologist, like I said to her once, I feel like it’s all going to go.

Katie Phillips
This was in the depths of darkness.

Robin Daly
Wow, did you? Great.

Katie Phillips
and she was great and she said to me well let’s hope it will

Robin Daly
Well, you know, when you’re faced with these kind of this certainty that you’ve had it, you know, that’s the kind of certainty, your terminal, that word means you’ve had it. We don’t do terminal, by the way, yes, they’re like, you’re either alive or you’re just dying right now, but or you’re dead.

Robin Daly
But terminal is not something that I don’t think it’s something which works at all, because it has this future certainty. And who knows what the future holds, as we pointed out earlier. So always leave room for the incredible things to happen.

Robin Daly
And so for you to come out and say that actually you want to get through this, you want to live and everything is actually is a very audacious thing to say in the face of all these certainties from experts and all the rest of it.

Robin Daly
It’s pretty outrageous stuff, really, but it’s great, you know, that is a huge part of your power to heal yourself, I think. You’re voicing it. So, yeah, good on you, I say. Thanks. Okay, well, no, just about out of time, there’s one thing you’ve learned along the way that you wish you’d known right on day one.

Robin Daly
What do you say it was?

Katie Phillips
Well, I mean, I could get a bit more profound on that, you know, and sort of in keeping with what we’ve been saying, which is like, trust your intuition and like, trust your belief. Find your belief and trust it and focus on that.

Katie Phillips
Don’t let other people’s opinions or ideas sway you, even if they’re wearing a white coat. Do you know what I mean? Like, and it’s not to undermine them. It’s not to say they’re wrong, but it is to say that like, like those 1% 0.5%, like they do happen.

Katie Phillips
I mean, I’m a 0.01% in terms of my diagnosis. So just as equally as that being my reality, so could the reality be, you know, against all odds. Right. Look where I am. So I think it’s that, you know, I think people do get bogged down by statistics.

Katie Phillips
They love statistics. And I didn’t have any. And I think that’s great.

Robin Daly
it is great in a way, and many people, they quite deliberately don’t ask for them as well. Some people want to know for sure. I think it’s a character thing as much as anything. Some people will have the statistics and it will actually give them the energy to act, you know, they’ll say, right, okay, so I could challenge, you know, and other people just don’t want to know because they don’t want the imposition of this very strong idea that you’ve got almost no chance sort of thing.

Robin Daly
So, yeah, it’s a character thing, what people want, but it certainly isn’t something that people should be fed if they don’t want it. They should be left in the room to make their own odds, I think.

Katie Phillips
I think so, I don’t know if that is my one thing, but there’s so many things, but yeah, I think statistics, that’s something actually I haven’t really thought about before, but yeah, I think sort of following studies and trials and numbers, don’t know if that’s helpful.

Robin Daly
Well, I think some people do find it helpful and they get very scientific about the whole thing and they’re adding up this, probably, I’m going to add 2% by doing this. You know what I mean, it comes a really constructive journey of adding little bits of potential to their odds of surviving.

Robin Daly
So, yeah, but it’s not for everyone. All right. Well, look, it’s been really interesting to talk. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. I loved talking about your unusual experience of living your cancer publicly in the way you have, and I’ll send you my very best wishes for your ongoing wellbeing.

Katie Phillips
Thank you so much. And yeah, thank you for having me on. It’s been lovely to talk to you.

Robin Daly
Bye-bye. Bye. You can check out Kate’s Talking With Cancer podcast on all the major podcast platforms and also visit her website at TalkingWithCancer.com. I want to give you advance warning that starting in April, Yes To Life is celebrating 20 years of bringing the best of integrated medicine to people with cancer in the UK.

Robin Daly
And by that, I mean direct support via our helpline, wider support through WIGWAM and our peer-to-peer service, education in the form of conferences, workshops and seminars, our book The Cancer Revolution and other sister publications, well-being sessions which are now available most days, information in the form of our extensive and resource-filled website which includes a world-class searchable directory of therapies and providers and a video introduction to integrative medicine.

Robin Daly
If you’re not familiar with our website, then I can highly recommend a look around. It’s YesToLife.org.uk. And a great starting point for that is the Our Services page for which there’s a link right close to the top of the home page.

Robin Daly
And then, of course, there’s our output on social media, blogs, links to resources, the Cancer Talk podcast series, our Horizons platform for health care professionals and that’s not to mention the weekly Yes To Life show with a searchable back catalogue of almost 500 editions available.

Robin Daly
So we’re planning a year of great stuff to celebrate our two decades and the best ways that you can keep up with all the action are to either make a point of following us on social media or on Facebook, Instagram, X and LinkedIn or sign up to our newsletter for which you can find an enticing sign up button in the footer of every page of our website and as a reminder that’s YesToLife.org.uk.

Robin Daly
Also of course you can make sure to join me each week here on UK Health Radio. As many of my featured guests and topics throughout the year will be selected to contribute to the themes that we’ll be focusing on.

Robin Daly
I look forward very much to speaking to you again next week and another Yes To Life show here on UK Health Radio. Goodbye.