Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcript has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hello and welcome to the Yes To Life show on UK Health Radio. I’m Robin Daly, host for the show and founder of the UK’s integrative cancer care charity Yes To Life. It has been supporting people with cancer in understanding and using integrative medicine for almost two decades. This show is one of the many ways we do this, introducing you to experts in the field of integrative medicine, discussing topics that are vitally important to those with cancer. For today’s show I’m connecting with the South West of England and speaking to India Gooderham in Devon. India has studied a wide range of exercise modalities, all with a view to specialised application supporting those with cancer.

India Gooderham
Oh, thank you for inviting me.

Robin Daly
you’re speaking to me from Darkest Devon, I believe, a part of the world I know very well. You always lived there?

India Gooderham
I grew up in TotNess and now I’m living in Ashburn, which is very close to TotNess, but done a bit of travelling and so I was away for three years with my children travelling around Morocco, Spain and Portugal and I have been back in Ashburn for about a year and a half now.

Robin Daly
Well, that was very adventurous, so anyway, nevertheless you’re drawn back by an irresistible lure of the West Country.

India Gooderham
I love it.

Robin Daly
I agree. It’s very nice. So, and I believe you’ve been in touch with our recently formed top-nosed wigwam group. Yeah.

India Gooderham
Yes with Jilly Bertram, yeah. I’m going to be doing a class with her in the next few weeks actually.

Robin Daly
that’s a that’s a great development it should have been a group there years ago but anyway it’s finally happened and very pleased about it so i’d like to ask a bit about the journey that got you to where you are where you’re interested in exercise and where that came from initially and about the route that took you to today working as an exercise specialist with people at cancer. how did you get into the whole thing

India Gooderham
I had a very early experience with cancer, with one of my aunties, a very close auntie, getting cancer when I was very young, like three or four years old, but I remember it very vividly, like her suffering. that really did have an impact on me. And I knew that as I was growing up, that I wanted to care for people. I got very interested in complementary therapies like Ayurveda and acupuncture. as a teenager, I was quite obsessed actually. Then I started yoga when I was 18. I almost pursued the Ayurveda route, but then my dad said, no, you need to do something. I can’t pay for you to do that training. you need to choose something within the NHS that will be funded. I decided to do physiotherapy, but I was kind of concurrently continuing to study Ayurveda and I was absolutely loving yoga. I was going through my physio training and I found it very stressful, but yoga kind of was something that really helped me to, you know, stay calm and it was great for kind of the physical benefits. But what I really could see straight away with doing the two side by side was that yoga could be amazing for people that weren’t well. I would go to yoga classes and it’d be full of very physically able people. there might be someone that might be struggling slightly at the back hiding. I was like, no, like this practice is so adaptable. This could be amazing. You know, there’s just so much to offer. I kind of held onto that feeling. I did my yoga teacher training in India after I’d finished my kind of like basic rotations as a physiotherapist. then I just kept gravitating back towards people with cancer within the hospital. whenever I was working, whatever I was doing, I kind of kept going back to that group and people be like, oh, India, there’s a patient, you know, and with cancer on this ward or whatever. I would always be the one that was sent and I would secretly be doing a bit of yoga.

India Gooderham
But sometimes people would be being anxious about some treatment they were having. I might do a bit of yoga nidra with them before they go. I was always using the breath within my physio practice. But then I got very, felt very trapped within my kind of physiotherapy box and I felt limited by that. I ended up working in hospice, which kind of allowed me more time with people and really saw people more holistically. So that worked for me. I worked in palliative care for about five years and brought an acupuncture to the hospice that I was working at. So that was really lovely to do that as well. then I had children and then after having children, I was like, actually, what do I really want to do and how could I do something that could fit around my family life as well? that’s when Gentle Recovery came into.

Robin Daly
what an interesting journey. you really carried on both the kind of the alternative and the mainstream in parallel, this sort of a dual identity there, but trying to subversively to bring them a little bit in to the mainstream. But also very interesting how palliative care, how that has gone ahead, I mean, that stuff isn’t happening in hospitals, but so there you were going to treat people in a home because of the fact that they’re actually, their thinking is much more advanced when it comes to palliation, which, let’s face it, palliation isn’t just needed at the end of life, it’s needed all sorts of times, and it’s sort of become known, almost palliative care means you’re dying, but it doesn’t really, does it? It’s actually just supposed to actually make you feel a lot better.

India Gooderham
absolutely. I used to get upset. I’d be like, well, why aren’t all hospital environments beautiful? Should be comfortable, should have natural light, should have this opportunity for people being seen as a whole. I kind of felt like sometimes, why have I left the hospital? Surely I should be trying to bring all these concepts in, but I thought I can’t, I’m going to be fine as a whole, but maybe I could just gently be doing that. that’s what I feel like I am actually doing now. It’s like, I’ve come away from end of life care, but using all these practices that I think people, you know, really should be getting. I think I’ve come back to that. once people have had their treatment, they need support in their rehabilitation. it’s just so scary and so difficult for people to find that. I’m hoping that I can help to bridge that gap, basically, with ways to treat, and then we’re all independent again.

Robin Daly
it’s funny the way it’s gone because with hospice care, you might have thought that there’d been a lot of learning going on from what was happening in hospice care because it’s so effective. But far from it, it seems to be like it’s an excuse to leave it to them. We won’t bother at all. We don’t have to now. We’ve got hospice care. we just pass them along the line, which is tragic, really, because you’re right. It actually should be showing the way for what happens in hospitals. We’ll leave. Yeah. So you’re really an early adopter of what’s fast becoming recognised as a significant player in cancer recovery, particularly in avoiding a recurrence. Do you want to do a bit of the sales pitch for the big wins that exercise has got on offer for cancer?

India Gooderham
there’s some really strong research showing that having a regular form of exercise can reduce the risk of recurrence by up to 50% for women with breast cancer or people with breast cancer.

India Gooderham
I think that those studies also was with the colorectal cancers and colorectal cancer and prostate cancer. it’s between 30 and 50% for those cancers, a regular form of exercise. obviously, it’s even less if people were exercising before their diagnosis as well. So yeah, there’s strong evidence. with yoga, a study came out this year, which was amazing, showing the regular yoga practice. it was two sessions of 75 minutes a week for up to four weeks could help reduce inflammation. that’s reducing the risk of recurrence.

India Gooderham
It was proposing that oncologists should be prescribing yoga alongside all these conventional treatments. Of course. We’ve got some evidence, even though we all know, and no brainer really, considering how supportive it is emotionally and physically.

Robin Daly
but we’re not at that point, let’s face it, despite the evidence, but do you want to talk about, okay, that’s the kind of the headline winds, if you like, but a few of the softer winds that go along with exercise as well.

India Gooderham
Well, obviously exercise is amazing on supporting emotional, physical, wellbeing, you know, I’m someone that promotes exercise outdoors as much as possible with all the benefits of being out in nature, getting fresh air, vitamin D from the sunshine, that’s really important. then also that the community aspect, the social aspect of exercise. I run a yoga session and it’s lovely when the women all come together, practicing together, like that community, that camaraderie is so, so important as well. it’s incredible. we obviously know exercise can help with weight management. we know that obesity is one of the factors around the prevalence of cancer. Then the number of bits of exercise, it’s just the list goes on and on and on. people just are needing support in knowing what’s safe and how to start. when you’re coming out of cancer treatments and you’re scarred, you’re fatigued, you just don’t know what’s safe. when there’s also the kind of risks of lymphedema, if people have had lymph nodes removed or radiated, well, what do I do? I’m exercising. that’s what people need the support with. where to start. We all know that exercise is beneficial, but where to start. that’s what people need the support with.

Robin Daly
OK, well, you just made a bit of a case for your role there. I mean, there might be people who are thinking, well, if I’m on an exercise program, I’ll just start one or go down the local evening class or whatever it is. But you’ve actually sunk a significant amount of time into specialist training, I believe, first of all, tell us what you had done in the way of training.

India Gooderham
I’ve got my physio background and then there’s a lot of experience within that and I’m obviously specialising in palliative care and oncology for many years but then I’ve also trained as a cancer yoga teacher so I did the specialist training for people affected by cancer and I’ve done a cancer exercise specialist training as well.

Robin Daly
that’s a lot of investment in training and as a result you’re in a position to first what you said to help people have the confidence to start the program and what they should do, i do want to say some of the other reasons why somebody might consult a specialist such as you

India Gooderham
lymphedema is right up there actually, with many forms of cancer treatment, people might need radiation to the lymph nodes, or might have to have lymph nodes removed. we know that even stretching can cause lymphedema. it’s really about a gentle and then progressive return to exercise. that does need guidance because, what does gentle mean? What’s progress? having that expert guidance makes a huge difference because I could help somebody, find out what their starting point is, what kind of exercise were they doing before their treatment, and then knowing where to start, and how to progress. how long would they be doing exercises for, how many repetitions, for what intensity and all of those things.

Robin Daly
some people obviously, they’re used to exercise, they like exercise, they’ve done plenty of exercise before they had cancer. those people, you’d still advise that they didn’t go alone and use their own ideas of what they should do. They’d still benefit from finding out how to actually get back into it.

India Gooderham
for people that have exercised before and they’re really, really keen to get back, it’s almost like I’m holding them back a bit. Because they would say I was doing this and I want to do that and I totally understand that because I’m somebody that’s really passionate about being active and being fit myself. a lot of this is about undoing conditioning that we need to push hard to get results because actually that push hard can actually be quite damaging and there’s more at risk of injury. it’s really taking stock of what people have been through the trauma of cancer treatment. It is hugely traumatic for the body on a physical level and an emotional level. hence, gentle recovery, I really believe it’s about people really slowing down and starting so gently as they incrementally increase their exercise levels and also support alongside that their emotional wellbeing. I’m very much an advocate of relaxation exercises, of talking therapies if people need that. That’s not my specialism, but I would definitely signpost people towards that as well. taking care of their whole being and that’s part of my role. For some people, it’s really encouraging to get into exercises and for some people it’s actually trying to slow them down.

Robin Daly
makes sense okay so you led very nicely into the name of your new initiative gentle recovery so first of all why did you want to set up your own program

India Gooderham
because I didn’t see a lot of it out there already. It was in the time of COVID. I was traveling and I feel a calling to do this work. I want to work with people with cancer on our support recovery. I thought, well, I can’t do that until we go back to England, it’s not possible. I’m just gonna have to shelve that. then COVID happened and we were locked down in Morocco and I was thinking, this is a crazy time. everybody was shifting online. why can’t I do what I want to do online? I could reach so many more people probably as well. then it came to me, I could create an online program that people could do from home and I can create these videos that show a gentle progression of exercise from somebody that’s just finished active treatment so they’ve had their chemotherapy surgery, whatever combination they may have had. they’ve got this gentle return to exercise that’s progressive through 12 weeks and then add in the relaxation sessions as well and educational topics about like fatigue, management, sleep, nutrition, all of these different things but they can actually do it from the comfort of their own home. I could see that there was also, it was the community aspect. Because they need to be able to communicate. I’ve created also within that platform something I called it the community tree. they had that image of this big tree and people coming together under the tree to chat. so there’s an online hub so people can ask questions and I can be there to answer them but they’re also supporting each other.

Robin Daly
one thing I noticed that you talked about this is a recovery program. this is starting from the end of treatment. I’m taking it the reason you decided on that was because whereas exercise is a great thing during treatment, that’s a much more managed process, it’s a much less a class or program situation, but more a one to one. Would that be right?

India Gooderham
Exactly. Prehab is incredibly important. People should be advised on getting active straight away after diagnosis so that they can be prepared and cope with the different side effects. But there’s too many variables for me to be able to offer something online as a pre-recorded product because they might have just had chemo two days ago or they might be needing some infusion or something and it was just too many things. I wouldn’t be able to deliver that safely so that I know that once all their treatment’s finished, that they’ve had the okay to return to exercise, they’re all kind of in a similar position. There will be different things and I’ve created modifications corresponding to different reconstruction types and things like that. There are things that people need to look at and say, okay, well, I’ve had that. For example, if they had the rectus abdominis muscle, that abdominal muscle used as a part of reconstruction, they would need to be very careful with anything where they’re crunching the body forward. There’s things for them to be mindful of so that I’ve included that. There are some variables that I’ve had to be really specific and careful with but not as many as if they were still in treatment.

Robin Daly
makes complete sense okay so who’s it aimed at first of all

India Gooderham
this program is for women who have finished active treatment, and the doctors have said that it’s okay for them to return to exercises for that group and we’re piloting it in the NHS at the moment and that’s going incredibly well.

Robin Daly
I want to ask you a bit more about that, so cancer types.

India Gooderham
This is just breast cancer so far, my dream is to develop it for many different cancer types, but I’m focusing on this cobalt for the moment because I feel like cancer is this umbrella term and then all the different cancers are treated though differently and have different effects on the body. ideally I’d like to create a program for the different cancer sites.

Robin Daly
Right. But in theory, you could do that. But you’d need to do it either in single cancers or groups of cancers.

India Gooderham
For example, I teach cancer yoga and everybody’s welcome because I’m there, I assess all my clients before they come to my classes so that I know where they’re at really and what they’ve been through.

Robin Daly
Okay, so it’s women with breast cancer and what should they expect when they sign up?

India Gooderham
they can expect daily sessions for 12, the course is 12 modules long. the quickest somebody could move through it would be doing three sessions a week of yoga, three walking, at least three to five walking sessions. getting out into nature and walking. then there’s a little log to make sure that they’re doing all of those. they would be getting relaxation audios that they can do as many times as they like. they change week to week, but they can have access to the program for up to 12 months. what we’re noticing in the pilot is even though the program is 12 weeks long, people are taking between like six and eight months to do it. I’m loving that because I can really see that people are pacing themselves and they’re listening to their own bodies. They’re not saying well, India says two, three. there’ll be people that will stay on module one or two for ages because they’re saying this is still feeling really challenging and I’m not going to move on until this feels more manageable. that’s really the message I’m trying to impart all the time. Every session that they go on to, it’s the beginning before the video starts. check in now, how are you feeling? How’s your blood pressure? Have you had any treatments in the last 24 hours? Just how are you before you start? that can help them to gauge how far they push themselves that day.

Robin Daly
Okay, very good. who’s it appealing to in terms of age group? there is a tendency in the kind of popular media to see yoga as exclusively live lycra-clad young women, you know what I mean? is it appealing to all age groups?

India Gooderham
appealing to all age groups, definitely. Great. Absolutely. I mean, I really have made it as accessible as possible. I’m very much a yoga teacher with a physiotherapist’s hat on, there is that the ability for yoga to be quite ethereal. we’re not chanting and we’re not doing a lot of that kind of more spiritual side of it. There is a spiritual side for sure, but I’m definitely focusing more on the specific needs of those cancer patients in terms of the physical recovery needs. connecting with the breath and helping to, down regulate the nervous system and all those things. there is that element of spirituality, but it’s not the main focus that makes sense.

Robin Daly
Fair enough. Well, interestingly enough, given your name, of course, you did actually bring the yoga back to this country from India, correct?

India Gooderham
I trained in India because I love Yoganidra so much and I went to the home of Yoganidra which is a really I think a really really amazing relaxation technique guided relaxation technique so yeah I went to Bihar in India to train.

Robin Daly
I do want to say a little bit about that trading and the kind of things that you learned there, which you think maybe have informed your practice over here in a very different environment.

India Gooderham
It was interesting because it was very Indian. I’m going to have to really like adapt this to take it back to England. but it was really incredible. It was a really beautiful experience to do something so authentic. You know, this is the real deal. the Yoganidra was a big part of it. so we were getting training in that. I feel like I spent most of my time asleep because Yoganidra means psychic sleep.

Robin Daly
Why don’t you just say a little bit more about what yoga need really is just for people who’ve never heard of it.

India Gooderham
A yoga nidra in Sanskrit, means psychic sleep. I as the yoga teacher would be guiding people for about 20-25 minutes on a journey through the senses, helping to kind of dip down into like our deeper layers of the subconscious and deeper states of relaxation. they say that 20 minutes of yoga nidra equates to about three hours of sleep and dip into like a really deep, deep rest. it’s also incredible because you, before the practice starts, you create a sankalpa, which is like a resolve or something that you want to manifest in your life. you go into this, almost like planting this little seed, and go through this process of relaxation, guided visualizations. you repeat that sankalpa again, that resolve at the end. that’s really powerful practice. people seem to be really loving it that I teach that to. there’s quite a lot of different yoga nidras within my program. people get to experience lots of different variations on that. lots of other different types of relaxation techniques for people, because it’s not for everybody, some people love it, some people like it so much. there’s other ones for people as well.

Robin Daly
I can see this is well off the radar of some people’s idea of exercise, but nonetheless, a very useful thing it would seem to me to bring to the West because, let’s face it, one thing we’ve got in spades here, stress, I mean, you know, just ordinary life is stressful. Better in Ashburn than London, but nonetheless, you know, there’s a lot of it about, you know, even wherever you are, people, it has teenagers, just getting it delivered over the internet to them wherever they are.

India Gooderham
it’s fundamental. in recovery, it’s what’s missed out on over and over again, so there’ll be a focus on the physical, there’ll be, do this, you need to do that, but those stress levels are going to be so, so potentially high after treatment and diagnosis, the fear of recryms. that support for emotional wellbeing is so important. that understanding of trauma and the fact that the nervous are probably so shaken up. we know that our body struggles to heal if actually it’s in fight and flight mode the whole time, there’s not that capacity for the energy of the body to go towards the healing process. the nervous system is still very, very tangled.

Robin Daly
when you think about it, most people agree that stress is one of the big contributors towards the epidemic of chronic disease we have, including cancer. cancer itself, of course, is the most stress-making experience, you know, the treatment and just the facing it, you know, the difficulties. if there’s no direct attempt to combat that in any way to give people some way of calming their system down, it doesn’t bode well for them, does it?

India Gooderham
No, no. It really is something that needs to be tackled. I just think it’s not given the attention that it’s needing to generally. But also yoga and all forms of exercise. even being active reduces our stress levels, doesn’t it? Sometimes it’s good to do something that’s specifically targeting that.

Robin Daly
because you’ve trained in in both these sort of routes of a cancer exercise specialist and a yoga specialist, do I take it the program to kind of heady mix of the two then?

India Gooderham
Definitely. It’s all of me. It’s my physio there, there’s the cancer exercise specialist and the cancer yoga teacher and it’s that kind of melange of all of them. I do scar work. I feel like that’s a piece of the jigsaw really. helping some people support their scars to heal and to be mobile and how people can care for themselves as well. Because that’s something that we miss sometimes as well.

Robin Daly
are you getting people joining your program from all over?

India Gooderham
at the moment I’m through the pilot and some people are coming through my instagram. It’s hard. marketing is not my strong point at the moment. I am really focusing on the people that are in the pilot and support And then looking at how to get funding because ultimately I would love this to be funded program I don’t really want to have to pay for it. It’s not Incredibly expensive. I’ve hopefully made it affordable and i’m really happy to offer people concessions. I just want people to have this support But i’m looking at becoming maybe a community interest Cic community interest company or some way so that people it can be funded and then it might be more easy to get it out there into the world

Robin Daly
let’s talk about this study you’re doing now. this is with an NHS breast cancer unit, local to you, presumably. how have you managed to get this to happen? It’s around your own programme, so what strings did you pull to get that to happen?

India Gooderham
I’ve just been incredibly persistent, I would say, knocking on all the doors and I managed to find a very progressive, forward-thinking breast surgeon.

India Gooderham
I offered to do a presentation of my program so I did a call with them and I put so that they could see what people would be getting if they joined the Gentle Recovery Program. there was a group of nurses and surgeons and oncologists watching this program. I said, if people are entering the program, this is what they will get to do and this is what they will receive. This is the level of support that they’ll get and they were really excited. I said, well, look, let me give you 10 free programs and let’s do a pilot, let’s iron out anything. If there’s anything that people feel like it could be changed , we can make those changes so that it’s as good as it can be and it meets the people’s needs as best as it can and they were really excited about doing that and it’s been incredible.

Robin Daly
I would put forward the idea that it’s your too-happied career where you’ve actually had one foot inside the NHS and one foot outside that’s made that possible because you can’t imagine the yoga teacher making much headway with a proposal like that.

India Gooderham
YNo, I think it made a massive difference. It is like I was re-entering a world that I knew very well, so that’s totally doable. I think my background, even though I really struggled with physiotherapy, it’s been an amazing grounding for me and I wouldn’t change it.

India Gooderham
now I feel like I’m really following my heart and my passion. that is just an amazing grounding. there’s no regret.

Robin Daly
So, tell me your best hopes for the outcomes from this study.

India Gooderham
I’m just really hoping that this study, that this program is like a springboard for people. I think I’m hoping and what I’m hearing for the people that are finishing, now I’m ready to go back to the gym or to go to the yoga class, open yoga classes, because they know what’s safe for them to do and they know how to adapt things for themselves. So that’s my hope. that actually is what is happening for the people that are completing or near completion. They’re feeling empowered and they know what they can do and how to go about it. I think that’s the main thing and for people to feel they’ve had full range of motion at their shoulder and their chest, those places that can get restricted. when people are starting are very tight and they’re actually scared to move, areas of guard and painful, for them to have that freedom of movement again, people know they have their limit, I teach lymph drainage exercises within the program. Sowhen they finish, they continue with those and they’ll get a poster. there’s a video that teaches them how to do it, but they’ve also got a poster that they can stick on their wall. when they finish the program, they’ve still got that as like a visual reminder of those exercises that they should do each day

Robin Daly
what kind of metrics are you applying to this exercise to let you know whether it’s been successful or not, or to demonstrate its success?

India Gooderham
what we are using is the EORCT, which is a validated cancer questionnaire, it’s all subjective, but that’s how we’re doing it pre the program and post the program and just seeing what changes we get, which so far.

Robin Daly
are you running the program over the 12 weeks that it’s initially set as or longer?

India Gooderham
longer. People are taking six, nine, someone’s coming up towards a year.

Robin Daly
when do you anticipate you’re going to get to the other end of this?

India Gooderham
within the next six months.

Robin Daly
what do you think the breast cancer unit is going to make of it if you could show them a great result?

India Gooderham
Well, it’s very close to getting some funding. We’re really close. they’re hoping to fund a limited number of places a year. if I get this, if I change to being a CIC, then I hopefully there’ll be more funding available out there because, more pots of money around. people can go onto the program for a much reduced fee or for free.

Robin Daly
in terms of a good result, tell me some of the ingredients from your questionnaire. What are the things you want people to be saying at the other end, which will be jumping for joy?

India Gooderham
It’s about, in terms of physically, having full range of motion, not having areas of discomfort. they feel there’s that freedom of movement, particularly focusing on the chest, the shoulders, the arm. We also look at people’s weight. Are they happy with their weight? obviously we can help the program getting more physically active can help people to lose weight if they’ve gained weight. We talk about general fitness levels. where were they at when they started in comparison to how fit they feel at the end. There’s also talk about do you worry about your health? are we helping people to manage that kind of health anxiety if they were feeling very frightened about the future at the beginning of the course that they’re feeling more empowered and in control at the end. we also talk about sleep.

India Gooderham
Was that, you know, pre and post, so obviously doing the relaxation techniques can really help, often people doing that using those before bed. that’s about it really. 12 questions, it’s about movement, it’s about fitness, it’s about weight and then the emotional wellbeing questions in there as well.

Robin Daly
Well, I wish you the best of luck with that. it takes a lot to change the hearts and minds of oncology. I have to say that currently the vast majority of oncologists are still either giving no or at the best, extremely poor advice regarding all types of lifestyle measures. And these, as we know, can have an enormous impact on patient experience. Do you think we’re going to be able to shortcut this in any way, or are we just going to have to wait for a generation of oncologists to die before they actually start realizing that this is extremely important, all this stuff, to the quality of life and the experience and the length of life of patients?

India Gooderham
Oh my goodness. I really hope it’s the shorter term that we can make these changes. I feel very lucky that I have stumbled across such a progressive breast surgeon that’s this is what I need. she’s an incredible lady that she works above and beyond, what people do. She’s incredible. we’ve put an abstract in for a cancer, a breast cancer now conference to go and showcase what we’ve done. they’re going to be doing a poster presentation. it’s probably only tiny steps, but let’s just keep trying to put this message across. I think things are changing. Definitely. It feels different from when I was working there, not that long ago, seven years ago, it does feel different. There is more receptivity, there is more openness. I would love to go and teach the staff, to be taking care of their own selves. We’re using cancer and these very dramatic times in people’s lives to say, okay, this now your time to like, really start looking after yourself to start putting this effort into yourself care. having that awareness of, your body and its needs. I don’t know if only we could just get in with, with the healthcare teams as well for them to actually be promoted from a place of awareness of themselves.

Robin Daly
That really would make all the difference, wouldn’t it? Because they would then be sharing the benefits of something they understand for themselves, which is quite different. it’s interesting what you say about your progressive surgeon. I mean, for people who don’t know, Devon’s a bit of a mecca for alternative thinking, often ahead with the adoption of new ideas. so I was wondering how much that had played into this scenario, I suspect quite a bit. But anyway, the other thing that’s been changing things quite rapidly. I mean, you say, yeah, literally in seven years, there’s quite a change. And seven years in healthcare terms is a short time. Is COVID funny enough? Our experience is that the whole concept of wellbeing and maintaining good health has really taken a huge step up during COVID. It’s gone up with the public, but it’s also gone up with professionals as well. I think the witnessing of the fact that COVID took out a lot of people who were sick, basically, the people who are really strong and healthy and had the stamina would just suffer a bit, whatever it was. But it was just another bug for them. But anybody who was vulnerable in any way was immediately really at risk of that particular virus. And that seems to have got etched in the psyche, generally. I say wellness, wellbeing has suddenly become a thing and not just some wacky stuff they do down in topless. So, you know, it’s interesting to me.

India Gooderham
I think you’re right. I think you’re right. the number of people that you see outside and being active, the number of people that are cold water swimming and all these things, I used to be on Dartmoor on my own most of the time, people wouldn’t be out walking and hiking and being active. it’s busy there now, people are, taking some control over their health bills. realizing what we have, England’s got so many amazing places, for us to be outdoors and active. It’s amazing.

Robin Daly
It has, you’re right, this sort of imprisoning everybody and finally allowing them out for a bit of exercise in the country. It’s been quite an eye-opener for a lot of people, so they actually thought this is actually quite nice.

Robin Daly
coming to the end, do you want to share some details of your website so listeners can find out more if you’re interested?

India Gooderham
my website is www.gentlerecovery.co.uk. I’m also on Instagram and it’s gentle underscore cancer underscore recovery. I’m really happy to offer discovery calls with people, to talk about how the program could support them before they purchased it. go through the website and message me through the messaging there. I also do one-to-one sessions with people. if it’s not breast cancer that they’re struggling with and any other form of cancer, I can offer one-to-one sessions. if people are local to Ashburton, then there’s the weekly yoga sessions here as well in small groups.

Robin Daly
Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the one-to-one there. I haven’t got around to talking about that in no time. But yeah, that’s obviously important for a lot of people, and great, you’ll take on all comers for that. And that can be online as well?

India Gooderham
That can be online, yeah.

Robin Daly
All right, fantastic. So it’s been a real pleasure meeting and chatting with you, India. it’s great to have people so passionate and committed to improving the lot of people with cancer, because let’s face it, they need it.

India Gooderham
They do. They really do.

Robin Daly
It’s great to hear whenever inroads are made into the NHS, however and wherever they occur, since it’s not until the benefits of integrative medicine are experienced in situ that our NHS will realise these are not nice to ads or add-ons to proper health care, but central to what health care is all about. This will be the last reminder from me about the Yes To Life Christmas draw. It’s a fundraiser for the charity of course, but it’s one in which you start a chance of winning one of many fabulous prizes which includes some great health and personal care products and the star prize of which is a week’s holiday in a delightful cottage on the southwest tip of Wales overlooking the Atlantic and that’s for up to four people. So don’t leave it too late, buy your tickets right away by going to the homepage of the Yes To Life website, that’s yestolife.org.uk. Scroll down the homepage until you see the news item about the Christmas surprise draw and then follow the links. Thank you so much for listening today, I hope you find the interview helpful and enjoyable and I also hope that you’ll join me again next week for another show.