Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcript has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors or omissions.

Robin Daly
Hello and welcome to the Yes to Life show. I’m Robin Daly, host for the show and also founder of the UK charity Yes to Life that helps people explore and access their options for cancer care. One of the biggest learnings for me in the 20 years the charity has been running is just how powerful and important groups are and how much they can support someone in regaining their health and well-being. I’m delighted to say that Yes to Life now has a great program of groups up and running under the banner of wigwam support groups and our foot is on the gas to expand and develop the program as much as we can. My guest today is a wonderful and indispensable part of our team. Sarah Spinks leads the wigwam program and has much to share regarding the power of groups to bring healing in a wide variety of ways. Hi Sarah, I’m really pleased to have you as my guest on the show.

Sarah Spinks
Hi Robin, it’s wonderful to be here, thanks for inviting me.

Robin Daly
So, you’re actually in charge of what we call WIGWAM, Yes To Life, which is our growing program of support groups. Firstly, people may like to know why it has the name that it does. The lovely Sue de Cesare, our executive director at the time, came up with a name when she started the whole scheme a few years back. So, why WIGWAM?

Sarah Spinks
I think wigwam conjures up feelings for people generally anyway in terms of that support. But the original name, as I understand it, was because of the coming together of the posts in support, and that was to emulate how it feels when human beings come together in support of each other. But I love the fact that it’s bigger than that, but the wigwam again conjures up that idea of safety and probably wisdom and maybe enlightenment.

Robin Daly
So, yeah, a nice sort of enclosed space, everybody leading in. So, as I mentioned in my introduction to speaking to you, you’ve been a highly valued and key member of our amazing team at ESL Life, First Year’s Volunteer. Would you like to tell us exactly what you do for ESL Life?

Sarah Spinks
Yeah, absolutely. I think it was around three years ago that I approached, um, the wigwam coordinator at the time, um, because I wanted to volunteer in terms of running a support group. It was something I hadn’t reached out, um, for myself. And that was interesting in itself. Um, Ben as I went through that process, I understood what it was like to be part of a group and I felt something that I probably hadn’t experienced before. And that was very powerful at the time, because I was retraining in holistic health and that became part of my job holding groups. I felt confident enough to reach out as that volunteer. So I ran, um, a group as a volunteer for a year and now that’s three years old. And after that the position became available and I just felt absolutely compelled to support Yes To Life in that way. Yes To Life had supported me in my breast cancer journey, um, nearly seven years ago now. It was instrumental in that. And I just wanted to be part of something that I felt was so powerful and also having seen and witnessed the reaction of how the groups support individuals coming into that space. So it was something that was part of my own meaning and purpose and equally something that, yeah, I’m just hugely passionate about it.

Robin Daly
It’s so interesting because, you know, in terms of services we’ve been offering, it’s relatively young. I mean, it’s probably six or seven years old now, you know, actually offering groups. But you know, it’s really incredibly central to what we do now. It’s one of the most important things we offer. And part of that, I suppose, is my own realization of actually how powerful they are and how important they are. I just really wanted to push them. Since I found that out, it just wasn’t something I was aware of before. Anyway, say you’ve got lots of experience with groups at this point. So I’m very keen to find out more as, yeah, the more I look into the power of groups, the more impressed I am with what they can do for people. Clearly, not everybody is going to be attracted to joining a group. But do you think there’s actually something intrinsic to group work that means there’s actually something on offer for everyone?

Sarah Spinks
Absolutely. And I think going back to why I felt resistant to it to start with, I think many can think, I don’t want to be a member of a cancer support group. Firstly, who wants cancer? And then to associate that with being part of the cancer community as such, I can completely understand why that’s not a popular avenue. I also think, particularly in the integrative medicine space, that people feel very self empowered. And it’s almost necessary to find one’s own way as an individual in taking those first steps. And there can be a very steep learning curve. So I think perhaps we need to get up that a little bit first, which perhaps puts people off because it’s like, right, I need to do this. Which is, you know, that can be incredibly health supportive as well. But I think there’s a, I see it as a significant misunderstanding of what a group is and what it can deliver. And I think the way I can explain it is even if you look outside, what is the essence of a cancer support group, we have connection through yes to life. For example, at the conferences, when people come together in person or online with a shared motive and a shared passion that has influential effects on a person’s energy, which in turn affects how they make decisions, how they’re experiencing going through cancer. And this has been proven in the last year because we set up a book club, discuss yes, decorative texts. And it was interesting because that appealed to certain people who didn’t want to join the typical cancer support group. But in essence, over the year of consistently meeting with a similar number of people, it has turned into a group that supports each other through this experience. So it’s almost, I’m not going to say it’s irrelevant what that connection is called. It’s all language, isn’t it? And I think it’s the language of cancer support group that pits people off. But if we go behind that, in terms of what that provides for the individual, you know, there’s so much literature, science backed evidence around the importance of that connection, shared experience, how it affects our biochemistry in terms of immune function, you know, emotional regulation, you know, all of that. It’s behind that, I think is where the magic lies.

Robin Daly
Hmm, interesting. So it’s like, you’re almost saying in some ways, it doesn’t matter what the pretext is, but the format of the group is the powerful thing. It’s actually meeting in this way in shared vulnerabilities, if you like, because there are people facing difficulty and that’s kind of acknowledged in the format. But also, you know, just having that leading intake we were talking about earlier with other people, it’s very meaningful.

Sarah Spinks
is very meaningful. I think, I’m obviously going to say this, but I think our groups didn’t. I’ve obviously joined some other groups and other facilitators have as well. And I meet regularly with our facilitators. They’re all volunteers who have used Yes To Life, been part of Yes To Life, have had the integrative cancer experience. And I think that’s where we’re unique. But what comes out of that is a deep understanding and empathy of what people are going through. And I think that’s what makes a difference. Many groups can be led by professionals, also very much that peer-to-peer support. And people have to, you know, have gone through that experience, felt how it feels, understand what it feels like when you feel that shred of light, that hope come back in. And therefore our facilitators can hold that space because a group, you know, can have whatever you want on the tin. A group is going to depend on the people within it. The people who regularly come together, how they relate to one another, how they support each other, what they bring to it and what they take from it. And it’s that that creates the sort of synergistic power in it, I think.

Robin Daly
It’s interesting, you’d think that people are so different, you’d think that a different group of people, you know, would be a very different result. And obviously, to some extent, it’s going to be true. But my feeling is there’s some underlying things which are so common to human beings full stop, that it doesn’t matter who’s meeting almost, you know, as long as the kind of spirit of it is there, of meeting for a positive reason to be supported to support one another, then the same things are possible, which have to do with very, very underlying human issues to do with belonging, meaning and purpose, all these kind of very fundamental issues that are placed in our social circle, you know, how we relate to others, how we feel about whether other people care about us, you know, all these things are very fundamental to our sense of being at home and our sense of well-being.

Sarah Spinks
Absolutely. And I think that’s shown quite clearly in the meeting that we run as a drop-in called the Wigwam Cafe.

Robin Daly
Hmm, I was gonna ask you about that, yeah.

Sarah Spinks
So this is something we run every couple of weeks where people who are interested in our groups come as the first point of call, and that’s people who we’ve not spoken to before, and people who are strangers to one another. And even within that, there is quite the effect, the impact. I get some beautiful comments after that. Really? Nice. And also quite regularly, tears within it. And by tears, I mean tears of relief and exactly relating to what you’ve said, that moment where somebody feels the relief of being heard, being understood, not even having to sort of explain everything, but just being listened to, and then a couple of words from either myself or other people who are there. That just commune quality in that experience.

Robin Daly
Really nice. So it’s a funny thing, you know, people are going along ostensibly just to find out what it might be like if they wanted to join a group, but actually they experience it first time cause they’re in one straight away. So, uh, it was a bit of a trick, but it’s very good. I, I was interested in what you said a little while ago about the fact that some groups are run by professionals and ours are not, and I feel like that’s important in a way that the presence of somebody who’s sort of seen as a professional in some way has an effect on what’s going on in the group. And we’re, you know, medicine is run by professionals and we’re, is our relationship to the professionals is, is a huge part of the journey. And, uh, is of course, uh, anybody who’s hair cancer knows it can be good, a bit, it can also be other things, uh, relationship with these professionals. It’s a funny thing cause there’s this, um, uh, juggling for position there where there’s no position in our groups other than somebody’s organizing it. You know, the facilitator is not, um, not a professional. They’re not telling people what they have to do. They, the group’s finding its own way facilitated by somebody. I feel that’s an important ingredient in allowing in a kind of vulnerabilities and the exploration that is key to it. Would you agree with that?

Sarah Spinks
absolutely 100%. And although our groups are volunteer-led, everybody obviously goes through a training process. And we have a number of standards and an agreement in terms of how the group should be run. You know, it’s very confidential, it’s a safe space, no advice. You know, so the volunteer is typically a part of the group, still going through their own experience. And that doesn’t mean they have active cancer, they may be moving forward after cancer, you know, myself on six years post. But it doesn’t mean to say that the themes are irrelevant. So I think, you know, the facilitator is part of the group itself, but equally is there to guide and make sure that everybody else feels very safe and very held, and is able to express exactly how they feel and the way that they want to go through, again, their cancer experience, there’s no judgment. So there’s not a professional kind of mindset of trying to do one way or the other, or, you know, I want this person to go out feeling like this, it’s just very relaxed. And that empowers each individual because people can come into their own realization that they have a lot of answers within themselves in hearing somebody else and being able to them. And in turn, that’s then guiding them to their own answers as well.

Robin Daly
I feel that’s a very important part of the whole group thing. As you say, they do have a structure and the structure is very important because it has to create a kind of crucible in which something’s possible. There has to be a kind of respect and there has to be nobody wanting to tell anybody else how they should be doing things. It’s a process of listening and finding out and exploring, not of telling people what to do in any way. So those kind of basics are very important to the success of the group, but then once you’ve got that container you can then freely explore it within it.

Sarah Spinks
Yeah, and that’s the wonderful part when you see that come alive. So one people, and again, even within the cafe context, which is an hour long, you can see the sense of safety already coming through. It doesn’t actually take long to either trust or not trust.

Robin Daly
Right. That’s interesting.

Sarah Spinks
Well, what the groups really display in my learning from it is everybody realizing how unique they are. You very understand the way that somebody is approaching it might not be for you, but the underlying, I suppose, philosophy of becoming well or healing, whether that’s in the presence of cancer or, or without it is all very similar. So again, those underlying foundational pieces of who we are and how we navigate our health is similar. And then on top of that, we’re also very unique and have our own little puzzles and an understanding that is really powerful.

Robin Daly
That’s interesting because it’s a bit of a sort of metaphor for what goes on in medicine. There’s a lot of things apply to most people in cancer care, you know, but integrated medicine particularly makes room for the fact that, yeah, not everything applies to everybody. Everybody is different. And therefore, if you don’t take that into account, well, you’re just sort of squeezing somebody through conveyor belt that they don’t necessarily fit on at all and that may not be helpful to them. So yeah, it’s a very important part of integrated medicine, this part that respects the individuality of people and allows them to be who they are.

Sarah Spinks
Yeah. And what’s really interesting is somebody might have quite firm views at one point regarding how they want to approach their treatment. But six months later, it might be completely different. Yes, that’s true. Have a continual belief that that’s going to change and evolve as well. And I think understanding that is just so freeing.

Robin Daly
Absolutely. So we’re kind of in agreement that these groups can provide some really great things to people who are faced with difficulty like cancer to everybody in a similar kind of way. But then I’m sure you’ve seen people take evolutionary leaps within groups that they would have never done on their own. I wonder if you just want to talk about that in general and maybe even give us an example of things that have really stunned you.

Sarah Spinks
Yeah, I think the most powerful examples I have of people who come into the group that are at the beginning of that learning curve, totally overwhelmed, totally drenched in fear that has been provided by their medical team with, for example, a specific prognosis. That’s probably the example that we see most often that people are kind of cast out by the medical conventional system and said, I’m sorry, there’s nothing we can do. That’s sadly when we see people reaching out for other auctions. And then when they come to the groups and for the first time, perhaps our understanding that there is always something that can be done to soothe, to heal, again, irrespective of context and even outcome, that that’s when the powerful change starts to happen. So for example, we may see somebody come with a prognosis of six months to live. And then they’re here months later, having refrained what they’ve been told, having been able to bring in themselves things that they and to sort of almost shed that expectation or perception that’s outside of that and come back to something far more powerful, which is themselves. And then it’s almost like doing that without a gender or a striving or that energy where we’re so desperate and so want something to change. If the groups can hold somebody through that to just let go and soften a little bit and find their way and understand all about them, that’s I think when we see the most powerful sort of healing transformation. And by that, I mean just the ease that somebody then has going through something that before would have been totally traumatic to them. It seems to ease that. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things. I mean, that’s the extreme example.

Robin Daly
Mm-hmm. Okay, fantastic. So we got a brand new group to Stirving Up, well, Carers. I want you to tell me about that, please. How’s it come about?

Sarah Spinks
It’s come about, um, yeah, part of my own training was helping support people with cancer, but understanding how that impacted the caregiver as well, how it impacted their wellbeing, how the person with cancer changes in terms of their emotions, in terms of what they want to share, the burden they feel, the guilt they feel. And similarly the caregiver, you know, the caregiver not wanting to share how it’s making them feel with the person they’re caring for, because they don’t want to burden them. You know, they may even have differences in opinion in how they want to approach cancer and its treatment. So we were already being approached by the caregiver, just reaching out to the charity for support. Um, and at the moment we don’t, specifically to stages or types of cancer, because underlyingly a lot of those emotions and challenges can be very similar and people can really learn from each other. So at the moment we’ve got a couple of caregivers in sort of in our groups anyway. But what we wanted to do is create a space again with a deeper shared experience of what that’s like in order that the caregivers can completely express themselves without worrying anybody who’s going through cancer in terms of, my goodness, if this is what a caregiver is experiencing, then I need to be more careful and maybe repress even more of what I’m going through or feeling. So to create a space totally dedicated to caregivers felt something very important that we should be doing. Um, we’ve wanted to do it for, for a while. Um, but again, it’s sort of creating that critical mass of people that we can support and getting that going, but we’re taking the plunge in the, in the new year.

Robin Daly
Fantastic. Yeah, well, I’m very pleased, as you say, it’s one of those things we’ve been talking about forever. We’ve known it’s needed. You know, we know that they’re enormously under supported carers. And yeah, so I’m completely delighted we’re doing something about that. So I mean, if the carers listening, do please contact us live to find out more. If you’re somebody who has a carer, you might want to tell them about the group as well. So anyway, I’m really also pleased that we got another offering for carers in that next week’s show is all about the role and features someone who’s got a lifetime of caring experience to share Deanna technical. So be sure to listen in next week over the Christmas holiday. So apart from the care group, do you want to give a summary of what’s on offer from week one in terms of groups?

Sarah Spinks
Yeah, absolutely. So our groups, um, initially was started by some very passionate individuals who wanted to set up in-person groups in their local area. They have some other people that they felt they could, you know, have these types of conversations with. So we do have certain in-person groups that have grown very naturally and organically, but we felt that there was a real need to have these online as well. And online just is such a blessing because we can have people from all over the country isolated and alone is very much a side effect of cancer. So the online space is just wonderful in delivering, um, in delivering that. So we have pretty much half of our groups online and half in-person at the moment. Um, they’re all quite regularly attended. They typically run once a month at a time where the volunteer is obviously available to run that, but we obviously do try to keep that consistent month on month. We also, as I mentioned before, started the book club because part of this journey, um, is information, education, and we all have books, don’t we, piled up.

Robin Daly
We all do.

Sarah Spinks
don’t really want to get through them. But what about discussing that with others? What are they taking from it? If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this last year reading many of the texts that I read again six years ago is that there’s something new to be found when you revisit it and when you’re at a different place in your experience, when you’re a different place in your learning cover, there’s always something to take from it. But it’s so interesting again listening to how other people are perceiving the information, how they’re actioning the information. Again, what might be completely enlightening for one person can make somebody else feel more fearful. So again, in that group space, it’s understanding how it’s making us feel what’s supportive and what’s not. Because I think the most important thing is to take what’s supported and be able to let go of what’s not. So I think wigwam is all about that. We talk about the group, but actually it still comes down to the individual within the group. It’s still about individual and actually the presence of the other people within that is like a mirror, almost a reflection of what we need.

Robin Daly
Yeah. And they have their own characters. These groups are actually quite different to each other, depending on the people in them. And they are kind of self-directed within the kind of structure that Yes Life’s created, they’re actually exploring. And how they do it and where they get to is up to them. So it’s an interesting journey and they each have their own flavour. Yeah, so the kind of commitment that’s involved is once a month for most of them, yeah.

Sarah Spinks
Yes. We have seen, and I think this has been typical of many a thing. I think there are more and more supportive courses, groups, workshops on offer, which is an absolute blessing and a curse, because I think when we’re again on the learning curve, we’re reaching out for anything that might support us. And I think the thing where we can trip ourselves up is reaching out to too much. We overwhelm ourselves. So therefore what we’ve seen, we’ve seen this in our wellbeing group is we get high number of registrations and then not so much attendance. So what we’ll be doing in the new year is to really sort of work to encourage more consistent and regular attendance. We’ve seen in the groups where people come as much as they can and we have a consistent number of people, but the power in that is second to none.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it’s my experience too, yeah.

Sarah Spinks
What we also completely understand, we’re in cancer. We understand that people have treatments. We understand that they may not feel right. But sometimes I get messages saying, I’m not going to come. I don’t want to bring the energy down. And that’s exactly when we want people to come.

Robin Daly
Thank you for saying that.

Sarah Spinks
That’s exactly when it’s really, really helpful. I’ve also had messages from, I see people going through something far more significant than me, you know, the comparison.

Robin Daly
Yes, yes.

Sarah Spinks
cancer and again I love it when people are actually honest with regards to why or why they may not be considering coming because then we can just bring that included and I’ve not had one person regret then coming.

Robin Daly
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, interesting. It’s a bit like reasons for not going out for some exercise, you know, and there’s endless ones, but when you actually go and do it, you realize, oh, yeah, of course, that’s why. Yeah, that’s very good. You point to all of that. That’s right. The person, of course, who’s feeling the lowest is not going to bring down the group. They’re going to be brought up by the group.

Robin Daly
Fantastic. So what’s the best way to find out more?

Sarah Spinks
The best way to find out more is to go to our website, go to the Wigwam Group section, you can complete the Contact Us form within that. We’ve got information on our groups. It’s all being renewed at the moment, refreshed for the new year with the Caregivers group. But if you complete the Contact Us form at the bottom, I will then personally email each person and invite them to the next Wigwam Cafe to come along, connect with me, hopefully two or three other people, experience what it’s like in that space and then decide if they’d like to join one of our groups.

Robin Daly
Fantastic. Okay. That was all brilliant, Sarah. Thanks so much. And thank you for bringing your skills and your passion and your love for our work to, yes, life. I love having you on board.

Sarah Spinks
Thank you, Robin. It’s been an instrumental part of my own healing journey as well and I truly love being part of it.

Robin Daly
Thank you.

Sarah Spinks
Take care, Robin. Bye. Lots of love.

Robin Daly
I want to end today by introducing you, briefly, to two participants in the Wigwam program. Firstly, Steve Montague, who is a stalwart member of the Wigwam Book Club. Hi, Steve. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Steve Montague
And having had a read around, there was a book club a couple of weeks time. I thought I’ll have a click on that, see what that’s like. And I’ve really enjoyed it. So, yeah, it’s been I wasn’t a fan of sort of the I guess the hospital do sort of the get togethers or the once a month meetings kind of thing. And that it didn’t appeal to me the way they were structured and the way it was very much people wanted to talk about their own problems. Whereas this is very much reading a book and talking about what actually could I get from what are the solutions? Where are the benefits from it?

Robin Daly
Forward looking. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so what do you think you’d say to someone who’s contemplating the idea of joining a group of some sort, maybe not a book group, but some sort of group, if they got cancer and they’re interested in doing whatever they can to help themselves?

Steve Montague
I think I mean, I’m a convert, so I’d tell them to jump right in. But I think it’s also a case of finding what’s right for you. We’re not all the same. We don’t all react the same to different situations. But if you and I think especially if you’re someone who has not so much a great support network or a slightly narrower support network, it’s quite good to get some other opinions and to talk to some other people. My support network is very much reliant on two or three people. So it’s very handy. It’s good for me to then converse in a group of six or eight people to get some other opinions and not feel like everything is being burdened onto the same few individuals within the family kind of thing.

Robin Daly
Yeah, that’s a danger, isn’t it? And is the membership of the group reasonably consistent or does it change a lot?

Steve Montague
It’s probably 60, 70 percent the same people and then some or others have drifted away and some others have joined recently. Some only come for one or two sessions, some stay longer. Yeah, so a good core of people there.

Robin Daly
Very good. All right. Well, that’s, that’s given me a great little insight into what you’ve been doing there. And, uh, yeah, the show today is all about groups, you know, that’s what we’re talking about and the power of them

Steve Montague
to do things that, well, they can’t happen easily in other ways. So it’s good to get yourself outside of that little, we’re trying to do something different, but to say, I know what to do. And it’s such a vast area and there’s so much that, um, and so much of it’s contradictory as well. So it’s always kind of helpful to read both sides as well sometimes.

Robin Daly
Absolutely right. Okay. Well, look, uh, great for the contribution. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you just jumping in.

Steve Montague
Thank you for what you do from yes to life. Cause I think that there’s a lot of us out there who don’t necessarily say it, but that are grateful for, for the resource and what we get from it.

Robin Daly
So it’s all good. Good, good. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.

Robin Daly
Now I’d like to introduce you to Ingeborg Bergestrot here. She is a committed member of the Wigwam finding a deeper connection group that explores the opportunities for radical personal change that the crisis such as cancer can offer. Wonderful to have you as my guest on the yes life show.

Ingeborg Bergestrot
Yeah. Thank you. Nice to be here.

Robin Daly
So you’re a regular member of the weekly group that I run called Finding a Deeper Connection and you must have been coming for what, like a year?

Robin Daly
Right, right. So anyway, I know it’s been a time that’s included some major challenges for you, but you kept coming back. So clearly, you’re finding the group useful. I wonder if you could tell us some of the ways that being part of a group has been a help to you.

Ingeborg Bergestrot
Um, yeah, because I’m, I’m like finished now, but I went through this cancer journey and, and I decided through my journey that, um, it will be opportunity to change. That’s why I like the deeper connection group, be a part of group who are talking about the deeper meaning of life, why we are here, how to change. And that’s just like so nice to, um, meet the people one day evening and, and hear what the other has to say and reflect, you know, and always get something out of it. I’m thinking about.

Robin Daly
Yeah, so there’s a particular thing, isn’t there, about being in together with other people who are facing similar things and have the same questions coming up. So yeah, our group’s a little bit different from meeting to discussing integrative medicine today, in that we’re exploring these kind of bigger questions of life. One thing about cancer is it’s got this way of throwing up these bigger questions right now faced, so it can be an opportunity to see if there are actually any answers out there. So I’m sure some of the people listening today will be grappling with some of those same big questions that you’ve been faced with. So maybe you can tell us a little of what you found by getting to grips with them in the group setting and how that’s helped.

Ingeborg Bergestrot
Yeah, I think just like, yeah, we always have like some topic and it’s always nice to hear what the other have to say. And that’s like, I get into my mind what I can like, yeah, and I have had like a lot of like new way of thinking of life or just like how to change, how to be a better person, how to like, yeah, go through like better life. It hasn’t always been easy going to open words and a lot of frustrations and I feel like I’m passing through walls sometimes, but it’s been really fun experience. And I feel like going to this Monday evenings are like an anchor, you know, something to keep me on the path. And always nice to see friendly faces. Everybody is so friendly and supportive. And yeah, it’s a good, really good group. And also I have been thinking, we have been talking also about importers of being in a group. And I’ve been thinking of that a lot. My groups in life, just different groups.

Robin Daly
Right, the very deep importance of social networks and maintaining our connections with people, absolutely, yeah. So yeah, it’s very easy to get dragged off into an isolated, very lost place by some of the immense challenges that people meet along the way that you have as well. And yeah, I appreciate what you’re saying about that sort of anchor thing of having somewhere you can come back to every week. I’ve experienced similar things in my life that if you’re having something kind of regular way or just checking in again, it just can bring you back on, oh, yeah, I was going that way, wasn’t I? When you’re feeling like how everything’s gone to the wind, you know, but it can get you back to thinking, oh, no, things are going okay, actually. All right, well, look, thanks so much for sharing a little bit about your story. I’m sure lots of listeners have found that helpful. And thanks also for being such an engaged and passionate member of our group. It’s been a privilege to have you on board.

Ingeborg Bergestrot
Thank you, Robin, I’m so lucky to have you and yeah, I love this group. It’s like, it’s the one I want to be in.

Robin Daly
That’s all for today, I hope I’ve piqued your interest in our Wiglam support group program. As Sarah mentioned, if you want to find out more, go to the charity website, that’s yestolife.org.uk and right near the top of the homepage you’ll see a link to our support groups and there you can read about the groups and also access a contact form to let Sarah know that you’d like to know more. This is the last show of 2024 and I’d like to thank you all sincerely for joining me this year. It’s been a year of significant progress for integrative cancer care in the UK and internationally and a fantastic year for Yestolife celebrating our 20th anniversary. So big thanks to you for all the support that’s enabled us to come this far. I wish you all the very best for the coming year, for your health and particularly for your happiness. And to play us out this week, here’s something seasonal from my family for you, featuring my fabulous singing daughter, Mirren. Very best wishes to you all.