Transcript Disclaimer – Please note that the following transcription has been machine generated by an AI software and therefore may include errors and ommissions.

Robin Daly
Hello and welcome to the Yes to Life show on UK Health Radio. I’m Robin Daly and as well as being host for the show, I’m also the founder of the UK charity Yes to Life that advocates for what is called integrative cancer care, cancer care that seeks to help people meet all the difficulties they face, whether that’s physical, mental, emotional or spiritual. This year, Yes to Life is celebrating 20 years of service and as part of that we’re having a focus each month on a specific topic that’s providing a theme for the month. May is our first month and we’re starting off with the umbrella topic of integrative oncology, the arena in which Yes to Life operates. My guest today has been chosen specifically to speak on this topic and is an inspirational leader in driving forward change in cancer care and speaking to Dr Penny Kechagioglou, Senior NHS Consultant Oncologist. So good to be able to welcome you onto the Yes to Life show.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Great to be here, Robin. Thank you for inviting me.

Robin Daly
Now it’s been a lot too long, so in today’s show I want to spend some time looking forward to the kind of oncology services that you and I would like to see in the UK, the ones we’re working towards and what we see as the ways we’re going to get there. So May is the first month in our year of celebrations planned for Yes To Life’s 20th anniversary and each month we’re going to focus on an aspect of integration for all our output that month which of course includes the Yes To Life show. So for this first show of the series we’re tackling the big one, integrative oncology. The whole subject of integration, what it is, why we want it, how we’re going to get it. So who better to go to on this subject than you, a pioneer of integration in the UK and also Yes To Life’s newly appointed lead advisor on integrative oncology.

Robin Daly
So that’s where I want to head today but I wonder if you’d mind talking a little about yourself firstly, what drew you into medicine and in fact into what is probably one of the most challenging fields of medicine, oncology.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
I’ll be delighted to do that and it’s my honor to be a clinical advisor for the yes to life charity and the work that you have been doing, Robin has been exceptional and you have had so many people, so many families. My background, I’m a consultant clinical oncologist, I’ve been a consultant in the NHS in the UK for the last 14 years, going into 15 years. I trained in the UK, I trained as a medic, qualified back in 2003 with the vision to become an oncologist, that’s why I went into medicine. So I knew early on from my early teenage years that I wanted to devote my life, improving the way we deliver care to patients and not just deliver what’s the next protocol, I wanted to do something more to support them and their families. And that is from my personal experience within the family of losing a very, very young person and seeing just the challenge to find information about quality of life and complementary services which traditional medical professionals don’t provide really, so we say.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So as a young girl looking at my parents trying to frantically find information about the cancer and not able to get anywhere, taught me that I really need to do more when I qualify as an oncologist to improve the model of care and be more compassionate with our patients and whoever looks after them. So here I am, I’m an oncologist, I do lots of other things, I’m into digital transformation which of course has invaded our lives and for a good reason. It has. And I’m one of the deputy chief medical officers in the trust that I work which of course helps me with my clinical voice to make an impact where it needs to be heard really.

Robin Daly
Mmm, fantastic. So did you just happen to be already in the UK when you started off in this direction? Did you move here well before that?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So I moved from my country of Greece to study medicine and I’ve never left ever since.

Robin Daly
Right, right. And what was the particular reason you wanted to come here to study?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
A couple of reasons. First of all, the quality of education in the UK and then very important mentors in oncology that still work and they’re still in practice that I could learn from, but also my brother who died of cancer, he came to the UK for treatment as well. So I wanted really to experience what he experienced so I could make it better if I can.

Robin Daly
Right. Okay. I understand. So you’re, you’re very highly qualified and you’ve held some prestigious posts. So I wonder whether you just give listeners an idea of your career trajectory so far.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Sure. So, as I said, I work in the Coventry University hospitals as an oncologist, as deputy CMO, and as chief clinical information officer. So, I’ve got leadership roles in the NHS, I’ve been a clinical director for surgery division, I’ve been a clinical director for emergency medicine division in my trust. So, yes, I’ve gone through the ranks, but I also worked in the private sectors as a chief medical officer, and I’m currently working with a company called Hycon Group, who have come from Australia in partnership with Enafield to help expand radiotherapy access for cancer patients. So, yes, my work is diverse, and obviously I work with yourself, and we are doing a lot of thought leadership, and we’ve got our broadcast. I was the co -chair of the Bridge Society of Integrative Oncology, and I do a lot of charitable work. So, everything comes together to serve the goal that I have, which is to improve cancer care in the UK.

Robin Daly
I’m not quite sure how you fit all those things in, by the way, I never did understand it. But anyway, okay, so you’ve said a little bit about your interest in integrative medicine. I mean, it’s extremely unusual for an oncologist in the UK to be interested or to know anything much about it. So is there anything else that’s played into your realisation of how much integrative medicine could contribute to cancer care?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Yeah, surely. I think inherently I had always had an inquisitive approach with my patients to understand, you know, what matters to them. And I always looked at my patients holistically, but it wasn’t until the pandemic when I realized that there’s a whole field behind this called integrative oncology. And during that time, I trained as a functional medicine doctor. And I did also a health coaching course, which is based around lifestyle medicine, but also, you know, how can we instill positive change and use a coaching approach in the consultation with my patients or clients. And that is where it hit me. And that’s where we met the robot, actually, that, okay, there’s a whole science behind it. And furthermore, there is a lot of evidence that the integration between complementary care, which is about nutrition, psychological well -being, physical well -being, traditional medicine in combination, which is what integrative oncology is about, actually offers better clinical outcomes to my patients.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So suddenly, I realized that this is actually the module of care that’s going to deliver what I always wanted to deliver when I became an oncologist.

Robin Daly
Amazing. Yeah. A similar realization that it needs the best of all worlds in order for people to get the best results. That’s right. Great. So at the time that I first met you, when you obviously already were embracing functional medicine and diving deeply into the kind of material that we were presenting, you were actually working in the private sector then. You had a great role there in the private sector. There was clearly a great career ahead of you within private medicine with plenty of scope to develop integrated medicine, but that’s not the direction you actually chose. Can you tell us what you did choose and why?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
shortly. I always like a challenge you know, Robyn. I do know that. I’ve never left the NHS but I did go part -time in 2018 when I became chief medical officer at Genesis Care UK and my practice there was actually quite eye -opener for me because Genesis Care was the first provider I’ve seen that actually managed to deliver that integrative oncology model under the same roof with traditional oncological care. So having for example a well -being consultant next to the oncology consultation clinic or having reflexology facilities next to the chemotherapy unit, having a gym next to the radiotherapy department and the evidence of actually exercising before radiotherapy improves the effectiveness of radiotherapy and we know that that combination of nutrition, exercise, microbiome can actually make chemotherapies and immunotherapies more effective.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So that’s when I saw actually what the evidence is talking about and live with live patients and very importantly seeing the difference that it made in the quality of life in the patient experience in the whole journey and how they quickly bounce back after the finished treatment which we know it’s the most difficult time for patients. They leave the clinical team they feel all alone but actually having had the experience of a truly rehabilitation and rehabilitation program throughout their treatment that enabled them to just bounce back and get back into their normal lives more quickly and experience fewer side effects from treatment.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So I was convinced let’s put it that way and I thought but why is that not the model of care that we want for every patient, not just the people who can actually pay for it. And that is where I decided during the pandemic to come back to the NHS with a mission that I wanted to make care better overall not just for oncology patients but the same applies integration is everywhere you know chronic illness prevention and we need a model of care that actually focuses more upstream and looks at the patient as all. But if we talk about cancer yes this is what I want to see. I want to see integrative oncology embedded within you know tertiary even primary care in the future.

Robin Daly
Fantastic. Okay. That’s what you do now. So you’re clearly one of the best kind of revolutionaries, wanting to disrupt the status quo here, but not for your own power or prestige or the betterment of your patience. And did you actually see yourself as a revolutionary when you were young? I don’t know where that happened.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
I think I’ve always been, I always strive for perfection, perfection in the sense that I wanted something better from what we actually, I can see where the problem is and I want to make it better. And I’m a very solution focused and that is what drives me. Not just what good looks like, what excellence looks like, that is what drives me. I’m quite humble as a person, you probably know that. And my success for me is to see more and more patients having access to interpretive oncology and seeing the actual benefits. And there are lots of benefits, not just for the patients, but for organizations, for the whole healthcare system and we just need to, as leaders, take a step back and as policymakers and actually have a read of the evidence, have, you know, observe the models of care that actually work, look at the patient outcomes to understand the huge difference they can make to our healthcare system.

Robin Daly
Well, you know, it’s an enormous change for me to have someone who has the position that you have and you know, held in respect within the NHS saying, actually, we could do better here rather than, you know, we’ve been kind of hammering on the door and saying, come on, it goes in there. Things could be so much better, you know, there are all these things. We know they work. Why aren’t you just helping your patients with them? And yeah, it’s very different to feel that now there’s a force within the NHS which is wanting the same change. So that’s a huge step.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
And the good news is, Robin, as you know, that we are multiplying, it’s not just me around here. Yeah, right now. There are more voices coming together and I think we are reaching a critical mass of oncologists. I mean, look at Lucy Gossage, you know, the movement that she has created around exercise medicine and so many other professionals working in the NHS who have made a huge difference by setting up charities, by spreading the message. And I think it’s about time that we all came together to make the NHS more compassionate, I would say. Yes. Incentric.

Robin Daly
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So you and I very much share a vision for what we want to be available to anyone who’s unfortunate enough to face a diagnosis of cancer. Just say you’ve got your elevator pitch, there you are, you’ve got to quickly sum up the case for introducing integrative oncology to every cancer centre by making it available to anyone who wants it. What would you say?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
You probably said it all, but my vision is to see integrative oncology, which is the evidence -informed field of cancer care, which intelligently combines nutrition, lifestyle, psycho -emotional well -being, and complementary interventions alongside conventional cancer therapy as a model of care offered to all our patients, regardless of where they are, regardless of where they are treated. There you go.

Robin Daly
Okay. All right. So, I imagine that in your day -to -day work, knowing what you know about what’s possible with integration, you regularly have thoughts as to how things could be the care path that your patients could be going along, the way the NHS could be responding to their situation at each juncture. So, if I’m right, what are some of the key elements of this new revolutionized oncology service?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
I think one of the key elements and challenge and an opportunity is that of workforce, okay? I think the workforce here is key. We need to look at the patient as a whole pathway from prevention, from screening to diagnosis through to treatment and survivorship and place the best skill sets at a particular time. So, to give you an example, Robin, as a health coach, I’ve studied at the benefits. I’ve seen personally the benefits as a professional coach practicing with my clients. I am a member of the UK IHCA. We’ve seen models of care where coaches are working primary care and in their community and they have made a difference. Only today I was talking to one of the leads down in the southwest where they’ve got a thousand of coaches and they coordinate them across the system and I think that there’s a lot of work that we could do upstream before either the diagnosis is made for prevention and lifestyle.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
And then promote screening so we shouldn’t have patients not going, people not going for their screening. That’s really, really important because we know we can diagnose cancer’s picker if people attend the screening. Make people aware about the symptoms of cancer which are sometimes quite subtle so there is education that needs to happen. Again, appropriate workforce whether that is health coaching in the community, nurses in the primary care doctors, pharmacists, even at schools and universities and people need to come forward at an earlier stage. And then once people are diagnosed, how can we enable integration to happen from day one? So we need to have conversations about nutrition, we need to have conversations about physical activity and we know that all intend cancers happen because of lifestyle factors and even if when people get diagnosed there is time to actually reverse those risk factors and once people finish the treatment they can be in a much better place for cancer not to come back.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
But we know that people live with cancer and leading a healthier diet, doing physical activity, sleeping well, hydrating well, abstaining from addictions like alcohol and smoking they have much better survival. So you can see how across the continuum of care from prevention to diagnosis to survivorship to living with cancer there is a lot of work to do but it can be done once we understand who the right workforce is at this level and optimize the workforce because we know we don’t have enough oncologists and we don’t have enough specialists there so we have to utilize the workforce and professionals more innovatively and that’s where coaching comes in the community, that’s where social prescribing comes for example.

Robin Daly
Interesting. Well, that continuum you spoke of there, that’s something I’ve spoken of very often in as much as the one thing about lifestyle medicine is it applies before you get cancer, once you’ve got cancer and after cancer, it doesn’t matter where you are. Lifestyle medicine is only plus, it only supports good health, so therefore it’s never a bad time for a lifestyle medicine. And so it is a single message, that’s the good thing about it. It’s the same message that exercise is good for you, always. And so that is one of the enabling things about this, is that if the education part of it is there, that people can learn that actually they’re responsible for their own health in this way, is that they don’t take any care of themselves in terms of their exercise.

Robin Daly
For example, there are likely to be effects, so that’s something that’s beginning to be in people’s consciousness, particularly since the pandemic. I think the pandemic’s had a huge effect on making people realize that how they deal with an attack of a virus, for example, is very much based on their general background health. If they look after themselves, well, it’s just a bargain, they’ll get over it. But if they’re in a bad condition, it’s dangerous, it’s a very severe thing to happen to them. So that’s had an impact, I think. The other thing I know from what you say, when you say you’ve trained yourself as a coach, that you’ve seen particular benefits of that role of a coach, it’s in cancer terms, it’s a relatively new thing, interestingly enough. I mean, I have known some cancer coaches for many years, but it was very much a minority thing. But now the idea of a cancer coach is becoming increasingly common. And it does seem to be like they could be a real key player in cancer, this person.

Robin Daly
They’re a bit like you said, this in Genesis Care, they had a, you called them a well -being officer, or some of you had a name for them. Well -being consultant, yes. Consultant. Well, that could be a coach, couldn’t it? It could be a coach, absolutely right. Yeah, and it’s really about education and signposting and resources, isn’t it? It’s about, okay, well, what can we do for you? You know, have you thought about all that stuff? And really meeting people on a different level to come in, talk to the specialist, he’ll tell you about what the scan says, off you go, and they’ll tell you about your treatment in the less than two weeks time. You know, it’s right, okay, let’s have a look at you, your life, you know, how are you, you know, how are you dealing with cancer, you know, the diagnosis, a big shock, do you need some support? You know, all this stuff can come out there, which there’s simply no space for it at all within oncology, really.

Robin Daly
I mean, I bet you made space for it, but it’s hard to do, isn’t it? It is, it’s going to be great.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
important, Robin. I mean, the majority, if not all of my patients, they feel that they lose control when they are diagnosed, especially when they go into treatments that they’re not pleasant, are they? And coaching is about addressing, meeting the patient where they are, as you say, understanding their needs and understanding their values and what matters, and also giving them that sense of control. It’s an opportunity in a lot of these people who have been living with cancer to change things that they always wanted to change and they never had the courage to. This is what they tell me. This is the exact words. To be able to guide them because that’s what coaching is about, isn’t it? It’s not direction. It’s completely different to being a medic. I’m not directing those patients. I am basically asking the right questions to get the character strength out for them to realize what they can do themselves.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
And once they realize that they can actually do it and they come to the next session and they tell me how they got on with it, the amount of transformation that you see during their cancer journey is revealing. It’s actually really, really lovely to see. They learn so much about themselves and they learn so much about what their body can do, even though they’re undergoing that grueling treatment. And they come out of the treatment and say, actually, I have had a good experience and doing this and I’m doing that and I’m still with that group that we go walking or running or I’m still meeting with that community and I feel part of it and I feel I understand and I can actually educate others. This is just amazing, isn’t it?

Robin Daly
Absolutely amazing. You’re right. It’s a transformation. It’s taking what, on the face of it, it’s an entirely negative, horrible experience that you just want to get over and turning it into something positive that actually helps people to grow, enriches their lives, gives them new opportunities they didn’t have before. All sorts of things can come out of this with, as you say, a little bit of support and direction and encouragement. Yeah, it has to happen and I think you’re probably right that actually this role of coach is maybe the one that’s needed to be dropped into the mix, basically, in order to enable people to find this other side of the coin, if you like.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
That’s right.

Robin Daly
So to me, it’s completely obvious the benefits of integration of bring to patients, give them choice control, you know, lots of tools to deal with immense challenges. But what’s less obvious, but hugely important is the potential of integration to improve the lot of oncology staff. And overall, I get the feeling that oncology think this is dangerous territory to go into. In some way they’re going to lose control and authority. Nothing less than complete chaos will ensue as they get down this route. And so I’m interested to hear what you feel the effect of the introduction of integration might be on your colleagues and on oncology as a whole.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Yeah, sure. Well, as you know, I’ve been on this journey with yourself and other colleagues of ours with the BSIO and the last two years. So when we started, Robin, and I introduced that concept in my, I would say peer community, the thinking was that this is probably some sort of a witchcraft or, you know, alternative medicine. And advocating something outside evidence -based, and that is down to education. I mean, when I went to medical school, integrative oncology wasn’t taught, nutrition wasn’t taught, exercise wasn’t taught. And I’m afraid still my medical students tell me the same, that they don’t. And I have given lectures in the university nearby multiple times, and in multiple subjects, and some of the students actually are very interested coming into oncology because of the integration, which is absolutely remarkable.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
But yes, one of the things that I want to see happening and working with with Nina, as you know, is on the education front. And we want to create a credible, you know, course that clinicians or healthcare professionals that they can, you know, join, get the postgraduate diploma or the master’s, which is recognized by the Royal College of Radiologists, which govern us as oncologists and as radiologists. And I think if we manage to achieve that, and we get modules into universities, and it’s taught as an undergraduate, as well as a postgraduate, module or degree, I think that is where the big change is going to happen. But just go back, when I started, I said, people didn’t know what it is, but now two, three years later, I can have a conversation with that same peer community, and actually, patients are coming to that peer community and say, your colleague is doing that, or the other colleague down the road is doing that, because there’s more of us, you know, we’ve written a book, as you know, about this.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
So the evidence now, it’s out there. Societies like the SIO and other models of clean the world in Australia, in Germany, they are invading the same, you know, knowledge space, we are all meeting in conferences. So it’s going to happen, Robin, the integration is going to happen and scale.

Robin Daly
Yeah, so the only question is how soon, it can’t be soon enough from my point of view, but yeah, hopefully, I feel it could be a kind of landslide. I feel that there’s the pressure for integration for a broader view of what cancer care looks like from patients is getting so intense and with this lack of response coming from oncology. At a certain point, there could be what you might describe as a sort of dam bust, where that gives way and we have a lot of change in a short time. I certainly hope that’s the case, that’s what I’d love to see because I think there’s a lot to change and yeah, it could do with being quite radical really because it is a very different outlook. It’s been too conservative for too long.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Yes, too conservative for too long. You’re absolutely right. And also we cannot just hide behind the operational pressures as an excuse for not doing it because actually that model of care is going to help the operational pressures downstream. If you have happy and strong patients who get through the journey, and as I say, build the resilience over time, they will need less acute care. They will need less of those follow -up appointments with menopause symptoms. Because all these are wrapped around into clinical oncology. We can deal with the menopause symptoms. We can deal with the complications of cancer. We can even prevent them, but we can deal with them with natural ways.

Robin Daly
Yeah, and I’ll add into the mix, maybe much happier stuff too. The pressures may feel considerably less when they’re feeling greater satisfaction from their work and their way of being able to… Less burnout. Yeah, less burnout, exactly, yes. So that leads me on. I just wanted to, looking at the end of the show here, an introduction to our yes to life charter for oncology. So we recently launched this as part of our 20th anniversary celebrations, and it sets out six points, the basis on which we would like to see oncology services reformed and the direction we’d like to see them moved. It’s got the strapline, love as the guiding principle for cancer care. And it makes the case that oncology, and that means patients and staff, are suffering from a lack or at times even the total absence of love.

Robin Daly
Now, I know that’s certainly not true of you and your patients, Penny. To me, you’re kind of the very model of care that I’d like for everyone, and I’m very proud to be able to count you as our key champion of our charter. But up to now, we at the yes to life, we tended to use the language of oncology in our campaigning, talking about treatment outcomes, longevity, quality of life, all these kind of things that is the language of oncology. But we decided that now it’s time to use language that can all immediately relate to. And we started to describe the key issue in oncology as a lack of love. Cancer care is a reasonably efficient service for dealing with a problem, but love has been factored out. So as an oncologist, how does this way of speaking about the situation sit with you?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
And I am delighted to see the Charter for Oncology, Robin, and I’ve already spoken about in the National Health Executive Board, asked me about it, and as you know, we’ve written a piece together, which is due to be published this month. So I am very excited. And I think this is absolutely the future. I mean, those six principles that this charter is outlining, and I’m going to mention trust. You know, trust is what we hear from our patients, lacking between the patient -clinician relationship. And that is because the other aspect of the charter are missing, you know, the empathy, the listening, the positivity, the hope, all of those things that we want to instill in our relationship with our patients. We don’t want to say, you know, we cannot offer anything because we don’t know about it. It’s not the right care. You know, patients come pretty much informed about what’s out there. They come and ask, you know, what can I do for my end?

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
How can I improve my diet and nutrition? And we cannot answer that that has no effect in your cancer because it’s not right. And at the end of the day, we are not responding to the patient concerns. So in principle, the Charter for Oncology is making the NHS more compassionate, is improving the communication between clinicians and patients, is actually as an MDT, a multidisciplinary team. And I include the patients, we enhance shared decision making, we empower patients to make choices. And at the same time, we keep ourselves informed as clinicians to be able to have that relationship and know what’s out there and have the conversation.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it feels like really it’s not, you know, we’re not asking any oncology clinician to have the breadth of knowledge that you’ve got, Penny, you’ve obviously dived right in the trading in functional medicine and all that kind of thing. But to know what’s out there, roughly, and what’s happening, there are resources, oh yeah, I know that actually there is a way of helping with that particular side effect. I suggest you go and talk to so -and -so. That’s all it is, it’s that kind of, you know, yes response, which is interested to know about things that help their patients and keen to signpost them to them, and keen to support their own interests in making themselves as well as possible, and not that sort of rather patriarchal old thing of like, we’re doing all this stuff, you just lie back and suffer, we’re doing all the treatment, there’s nothing for you to do, so yeah.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
That’s right, Ruby. That’s right. And I don’t know everything, okay? I don’t think anybody knows everything. But building that trust upfront, I can actually say to a patient, you know what? What you are asking me, I’ve never heard before, but I’m going to find out and I’m going to signpost. And I do have some integrated practitioners who I know, I can refer to. I’ve got full of trusted nutritionists that will work with oncology patients. I’ve got a pharmacist who is an integrative pharmacist. I can go and say, you know, what do you think about this? And what will they impact being their treatment? And we have to work in collaboration. But as you say, you cannot say no. You have to go and find out. And if it’s unsafe, absolutely, you advise your patient accordingly. But if it’s something that could potentially, you know, benefit them psychologically, physically, without any harm, go for it.

Robin Daly
Absolutely right, and of course the risks of something going wrong are actually greater when there’s a lack of interest, because the chances are if a patient’s trying to save their life or deal with a very horrible side effect, they’re going to give it a go, even if the oncologist is not interested. And so if it’s not safe, they’ll suffer as a result, so there’s no need to be a benefit.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Absolutely. I want to know, I want to make the environment safe for patients to actually tell me that they’re taking supplements because that’s important, as you say.

Robin Daly
Yeah, it’s much it’s a much better situation when everybody knows what’s going on All the attention is focused on the best possible result for the patient

Robin Daly
That was a great first run of our monthly focus shows here. Thanks so much. As always, it’s a complete pleasure, honour to have you on the show and also, of course, to work with you towards our shared common aims. So, thank you so much, Penny.

Dr Penny Kechagioglou
Thank you so much. Take care.

Robin Daly
As I said during our chat, Penny is a shining example of what we’re aiming for in terms of what oncology staff in the UK have to offer to those with cancer. She exhibits all of the six qualities highlighted in our charter in abundance. I shall be coming back to our charter in a later edition of this show, but meanwhile if you’d like to read more about it, then go to yes to life .org .uk, our main website, and click the find out more button that’s in the headline banner on the homepage telling you about our 20th anniversary. There you can read about our anniversary and what we’re doing to celebrate, including the charter for oncology. Once you’ve had a read, I hope you’ll experience a resounding yes in response and want to help us to promote the charter by signing our petition and spreading the word to your own circle to get them to do likewise. We want to get this charter into the public eye, being talked about so that it can be a genuine force for change.

Robin Daly
Thanks so much for listening today. I hope hearing Dr Penny Kechagioglou speak has inspired you to realise that the long -awaited changes that we want to see in oncology are on their way at last. Meanwhile I hope you can join me again next week for another Yes to Life show here on UK Health Radio. Goodbye.